Does this look infected?

No, I'm not showing a body part here ...

I've been making beer for years now. My wife decided that she wanted to make some mead, and I let her own the process. When it came to sanitation, she did some things that made me cringe a little, but for the most part I think it was okay.

We racked into secondary 2 days ago, and now we see this.

Some notes which may or may not help figure this out:

• She did not pasteurize the honey, which we have read on the interwebs and Schramm's book is not a big deal.
• She had dried elderflowers in the must.
• Yeast: WLP720. Fermaid, DAP, at the appropriate times; and some KCO3 to keep pH from getting too low.
• Primary fermentation at 68F for 20 days
• OG: 1.105, FG: 1.003, 13.4% ABV. Actual attenutaion: 77.8% (slightly higher than expected for WLP720)
• pH: 4.1

Taste at racking into secondary: simply wonderful, sweet, elderflower flavor and aroma rocked. There was some bitterness that I would compare it to a 20-something IBU beer. I did not detect any infection characteristics that I look for in beer.

So, what cha think?

Cheers!
Chadd

Looks fine to me. A lot of batches display rather odd looking surfaces when the ferment is going on, or when clearing.

If it smells OK then it's probably fine.

The only thing that made me ? is the use of the sweet mead yeast. They're finnicky and IMO a total PITA to use. People often grab them as it says "mead" in the title/name. There's plenty of yeasts that will do good things to a honey must, but......

About 80-90% of my meads develop that surface scum. just be patient and it looks like your going to have a good mead in a year+.

fatbloke said:

The only thing that made me ? is the use of the sweet mead yeast. They're finnicky and IMO a total PITA to use. People often grab them as it says "mead" in the title/name. There's plenty of yeasts that will do good things to a honey must, but......

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The yeast worked great! We did some researching on forums and sites, and people seemed to have good luck with WLP720. We didn't use a starter, but did a good job oxygenating it (O2 tank and carb stone).
Actually, I did the "double oxygenation" process that I normally do with big beers (O2, wait 12 hours, O2 again before fermentation starts). We held the must at 68F throughout primary. For the most part, we followed the Morebeer Meadmaking Manual, using appropriate Fermaid and DAP additions, ensuring pH didn't get too low, etc...

Fermentation kicked off after a little over a day, and finished in about 2 weeks. We let it set another week before racking to secondary.

We'll leave it alone, and not try to kill anything off with campden to "save" it. Thanks for your input!

Make sure the mead is topped off! I can't tell in that picture but you do NOT want any headspace at all. If you've got headspace, you could easily allow some mold or something to take hold. You want to top up to within an inch of the bung in secondary.

I've never had "scum" on my meads in secondary, but it doesn't sound good to me at all.

Yooper said:

Make sure the mead is topped off! I can't tell in that picture but you do NOT want any headspace at all. If you've got headspace, you could easily allow some mold or something to take hold. You want to top up to within an inch of the bung in secondary.

I've never had "scum" on my meads in secondary, but it doesn't sound good to me at all.

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I purged the carboy with CO2 before racking. That, along with the lock full of iodaphor should prevent mold from taking hold.

TheChadd said:

I purged the carboy with CO2 before racking. That, along with the lock full of iodaphor should prevent mold from taking hold.

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Unless you have some headspace..............................

Co2 does protect to a degree. But it's not like it stays in there forever. Gasses will seek equilibrium. Co2 will bubble out of the airlock.

You can do whatever you want with your mead. If it was mine, I'd top up to minimize the headspace and protect it.

Yooper said:

Unless you have some headspace..............................

Co2 does protect to a degree. But it's not like it stays in there forever. Gasses will seek equilibrium. Co2 will bubble out of the airlock.

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I guess I don't follow. First, the mead in the carboy is a positive pressure system, slowly generating CO2 while the yeast finished up whatever consumables are left for a few weeks or so after racking into secondary. Second, the lock only allows gas to leave, not enter (except under extreme pressure differentials). I've aged barley wines in secondary carboys for a year without mold issues.

Thanks for the advice, though.

Cheers!

I agree with TheChadd. When in primary and you're actively producing CO2, headspace is not only NOT a problem, it's sometimes very nice to have (as in when you're adding SNA's and you need that extra space to prevent the addition from creating a MEA!)

When you transfer to secondary, I agree it's nice to have no headspace. This is one of the reasons I do 6 gal batches -- so if I do need to transfer to secondary, I can go from 6 gal to 5 gal (with a little left over in a couple of bombers for topping off later transfers...) Regardless, even if you can't fully top off, if you can transfer then degas to purge the air from the space in question with CO2, then I think you're still fine.

Regarding the original question: you can get some funny looking stuff on top of mead at times (as fatbloke said...), so if it tastes fine, don't worry....

TheChadd said:

I guess I don't follow. First, the mead in the carboy is a positive pressure system, slowly generating CO2 while the yeast finished up whatever consumables are left for a few weeks or so after racking into secondary. Second, the lock only allows gas to leave, not enter (except under extreme pressure differentials). I've aged barley wines in secondary carboys for a year without mold issues.

Thanks for the advice, though.

Cheers!

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biochemedic said:

I agree with TheChadd. When in primary and you're actively producing CO2, headspace is not only NOT a problem, it's sometimes very nice to have (as in when you're adding SNA's and you need that extra space to prevent the addition from creating a MEA!)

When you transfer to secondary, I agree it's nice to have no headspace. This is one of the reasons I do 6 gal batches -- so if I do need to transfer to secondary, I can go from 6 gal to 5 gal (with a little left over in a couple of bombers for topping off later transfers...) Regardless, even if you can't fully top off, if you can transfer then degas to purge the air from the space in question with CO2, then I think you're still fine.

Regarding the original question: you can get some funny looking stuff on top of mead at times (as fatbloke said...), so if it tastes fine, don't worry....

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Well, it's your mead. Oxidation is very real, as is a chance of infection. Headspace in the fermenter is a HUGE risk. If you chose to ignore that risk, it's up to you. But no one will tell you that it's good practice. This mead is in secondary, and needs to be topped up. Acetero bacter, in particular, can take hold if there is headspace.

In primary, absolutely! You need the headspace. After primary, though, the headspace should be kept to an absolute minimum.

Yooper said:

Well, it's your mead. Oxidation is very real, as is a chance of infection. Headspace in the fermenter is a HUGE risk. If you chose to ignore that risk, it's up to you. But no one will tell you that it's good practice. This mead is in secondary, and needs to be topped up. Acetero bacter, in particular, can take hold if there is headspace.

In primary, absolutely! You need the headspace. After primary, though, the headspace should be kept to an absolute minimum.

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I have not found any studies that correlate head space to oxidation. Though not a "study", Schramm mentions nothing about head space and oxidation in his book. On page 74, he actually recommends creating a blanket of CO2 on the mead to prevent oxidation. Some googling reveals that fermentation locks do not allow air into the fermenter (except under extreme temperature differentials, see my earlier post); so oxidation cannot occur that way if the environment is already CO2. Also, I haven't found anything beyond anecdotal stories to indicate that head space has any impact on oxidation.

Similarly, with a properly used fermentation lock, it is virtually impossible for buggers to get in there, and that would have nothing to do with head space, to the best of my knowledge.


You seem very knowledgeable and well-read on this subject. Could you point me to some data concluding that infection and oxidation are correlated to head space?


Cheers!
Chadd

Oh, just clarify, I'm speaking specifically of a non-permeable glass carboy with a fermentation lock; not a gas permeable vessel such as a plastic bucket or oak barrel.

TheChadd said:

You seem very knowledgeable and well-read on this subject. Could you point me to some data concluding that infection and oxidation are correlated to head space?


Cheers!
Chadd

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I don't have time to google all my sources now. But if you just to look on this forum medsenfey and kenschramm are good HBT resources and mead experts. Ask them, or read some of their posts.

Ken Schramm himself will tell you that oxidation is real, and you must protect the mead in secondary. The co2 "blanket" isn't there indefinitely, and will disipate. Gasses seek equlilbrium. Another problem is the mold and aceterobacter love to take hold when there is headspace and can grow on the surface of a mead/wine/cider quite easily in an airlocked container.

You're the one asking, because you've got some scum on the surface which should not be there. If it was topped up, there'd be no place for that crud to grown. That picture doesn't look like an infection, though. It looks more like yeasty bubbles.

Yup! I read through many posts the forum...lot's of "do this to prevent oxidation", but no substantiation behind it. I suspect this is something grandfathered in from barrel aging/conditioning, where head space on a gas-permeable membrane is critical. (more head space equals more barrel surface area of the membrane to exchange gas with the outside environment). Glass is wonderfully resistant to gas exchange.

Ken Schramm's (kenschramm) book even talks about only worrying about head space in the barrel (page 73), and just blanketing with CO2 in the carboy (page 74) when aging.

It takes a long time for people to break old habits (like racking beer into secondary to prevent autolysis; yes people STILL do this ). This would definitely be an interesting experiment to perform. I'm surprised no one has done this yet.

I would assume (though I dont know for sure), that the issue is that once you have racked to secondary and there is no more fermentation, there is no more CO2 being produced, so what ever O2 was in the fermenter when you put the air lock on will stay in contact with the mead. Reducing head space both reduces the surface area that can react and the amount of O2 available.

Insomniac said:

I would assume (though I dont know for sure), that the issue is that once you have racked to secondary and there is no more fermentation, there is no more CO2 being produced, so what ever O2 was in the fermenter when you put the air lock on will stay in contact with the mead. Reducing head space both reduces the surface area that can react and the amount of O2 available.

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Our discussion was already taking account for that by pre-purging with CO2 and final fermentation and residual CO2 coming form the mead in secondary.

It looks like Ken will be talking at NHC this year. I'll try to hit him up while down there.

Ah! Sorry missed that bit! Would also be intrigued as to any thurther info on this then.

TheChadd said:

Our discussion was already taking account for that by pre-purging with CO2 and final fermentation and residual CO2 coming form the mead in secondary.

It looks like Ken will be talking at NHC this year. I'll try to hit him up while down there.

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Yeah, he goes to all of them. He's very approachable, and a heck of a nice guy.

You're the first person who ever said I was doing things the old fashioned way! But I DO have lots of experience, and I can tell you that you rarely, if ever, get mold or other growths on a topped up mead or wine. But with one with lots of headspace, it's not uncommon. I don't really need an experiment to tell me that sometimes the way I do things are good practice and don't need to be changed. I always think, when I do something with my beer, wine, meads, or ciders, "What's the benefit?" If there is no benefit to racking, I don't do it. If there is no benefit to NOT topping up, why wouldn't you? I guess that's just my way of thinking. Topping up will never hurt it, so why are we arguing about it?!?

Yooper said:

The co2 "blanket" isn't there indefinitely, and will disipate. Gasses seek equlilbrium.

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Can you clarify this? How will the CO2 blanket dissipate? Do you mean that the CO2 will mix with the regular air and be diluted and eventually lead to oxidation? If you purge a secondary fermenter with CO2 and let it sit to settle, when you rack, it should push all of the regular air up and out of the fermenter as that air sits on top of the CO2. No? I've used this technique with long secondary times with beers many, many times with no trouble. Talking about many months of time in one secondary though, not years or anything.

MattHollingsworth said:

Can you clarify this? How will the CO2 blanket dissipate? Do you mean that the CO2 will mix with the regular air and be diluted and eventually lead to oxidation? If you purge a secondary fermenter with CO2 and let it sit to settle, when you rack, it should push all of the regular air up and out of the fermenter as that air sits on top of the CO2. No? I've used this technique with long secondary times with beers many, many times with no trouble. Talking about many months of time in one secondary though, not years or anything.

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The co2 will bubble out of the airlock. It's not going to hang around in there forever. Temperature changes especially can cause the co2 to bubble out.

Yooper said:

The co2 will bubble out of the airlock. It's not going to hang around in there forever. Temperature changes especially can cause the co2 to bubble out.

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Okay, I can see that if the beer heats up the CO2 can bubble out, then if it cools, it will draw outside air back in through the airlock. But let's say the mead or beer stays at the same temp, if the fermenter is filled with only CO2 and no air at all, there'd be no reason for air to mix with that CO2. And even if it does let out CO2, then suck air back into the fermenter, this air should be lighter than the CO2 and sit on top. Then when it warms again if that happens, it would push this air out rather than the heavier CO2 sitting below it. No?

Anyway, all that said, I tend to do secondaries in fermenters that are not much larger than the volume I have as just a general practice to reduce head space just in case. So that could also help explain why my long aging beers don't get oxidized.

I'll see this weekend as well. I'll be bottling a Tripel that's been in secondary since Christmas Eve. It hasn't been opened at all in that time and is in a glass demijohn. It has some headspace but not a ton. Think it's about 1.5 to 2 liters of head space.

CO2 will only bubble out when the pressure is greater inside the chamber than outside. What is making the CO2 bubble out..more CO2 from the mead, of course (either from residual yeast fermentation and/or CO2 coming out of solution); most definitely not air/O2. The fermentation lock is designed to allow gas out if there is a slight positive pressure. The CO2 is just pushing *excess* CO2 out to equilibrate with the pressure outside the chamber. So the environment is still CO2, not air.

Under extreme pressure differentials (normally caused by large edit:decreases in temperature ), the fermentation lock will allow air into the chamber, and even then you will have plenty of advance warning when you see the sanitizing solution in the lock start to drip in the fermenter. This is the ONLY way air will get into a glass carboy if you properly purged it with CO2 before racking and properly connected your fermentation lock.

As for bugs...If you are getting bugs in your mead after you racked it, that's a sanitation issue or an improperly hooked up fermentation lock.

TheChadd said:

As for bugs...If you are getting bugs in your mead after you racked it, that's a sanitation issue or an improperly hooked up fermentation lock.

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Ok, but YOU'RE the one who posted, "Does this look infected?", not me! And I can tell you that in these many, many years, I've never once had lacto, flowers of wine, mold, acetero bacter, cork taint, or any other infection.

I'm not here to argue- hey, if your techniques work, that's great. I'm just pointing out that maybe my techniques aren't to be scoffed at either, because I say it should be topped up to prevent any problems. It's your mead. You can do what you want, of course, and you should. I don't mean to get defensive, but I can assure you that I have never (and probably will never) worry abut infection problems with the techniques I employ.

I'm no scientist, but I can assure you that if you could sample the headspace of your fermenter, after 1 month you would have much less co2 in there than you think! Do some research if you don't believe me.

Cheers!

Yooper said:

Ok, but YOU'RE the one who posted, "Does this look infected?", not me! And I can tell you that in these many, many years, I've never once had lacto, flowers of wine, mold, acetero bacter, cork taint, or any other infection.

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Yup, and the consensus on this forum was that this was normal when racking mead, particularly metheglin (that was from e-mail response). I also e-mailed some other folks and posted on twitter, and got the same response. I only posted because this was my (my wife's, actually) first mead, and I was unfamiliar with how it would look after racking. I, however, am not new to aging other fermentables for extended periods of time. Just for grins and giggles, if I was used to getting my fermentables infected (or if I brewed sours, bleh), I would have recognized what this was...or wasn't for that matter.

Yooper said:

I'm not here to argue- hey, if your techniques work, that's great. I'm just pointing out that maybe my techniques aren't to be scoffed at either, because I say it should be topped up to prevent any problems. It's your mead. You can do what you want, of course, and you should. I don't mean to get defensive, but I can assure you that I have never (and probably will never) worry abut infection problems with the techniques I employ.

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I most certainly am only trying to have an objective discussion. I apologize if you felt that we were arguing or if you took my statements personally.

Yooper said:

I'm no scientist, but I can assure you that if you could sample the headspace of your fermenter, after 1 month you would have much less co2 in there than you think! Do some research if you don't believe me.

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I did plenty of research (links, books, science, history, common sense, and a hint of anecdote (okay, I don't count anecdotes as research)), and posted each of my findings on this thread, all of which point to head space having nothing to do with oxidation in a glass carboy. I left it open for anyone to point to any research otherwise. Based on that, I'll hold off on adding marbles, dilution water, or that extra stash of mead, all just to top it off with each racking.

I could continue with an argument that if air is already going to get in there (only possible through an improperly sealed fermentation lock), that head space, again, would have minute impact over how much air permeate through over time. One could argue that surface area would be a factor, but if air is already freely flowing in, that would be second order at best.

But I won't get into that, because this would just carry on forever.

Yooper said:

Cheers!

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Cheers to you, too! Again, I was only trying to have an objective discussion, and I in no way intended to offend you or anyone else on this forum. I hope to see many of you at NHC this year. I always have a great time (when I can actually make it, of course :cross

A follow up about oxidation:

I bottled that Tripel this weekend. It was in secondary for 170 days with 1 liter of head space in a 20 liter demijohn. Temp fluctuated as seasons changed and we moved. The basement here also is not a proper basement (only half underground) and gets as warm as outside, so started warming as the weather warmed and had to move it into the house. Anyway, point being, it's been warmed and cooled a number of times.

And, it had not a touch of oxidation. I'm one of those people who's hyper sensitive to oxidation. Used to nick people for it constantly when I was judging in the old days. Anyway, no sign of oxidation with this beer, with those conditions. Secondary was flushed with CO2 before racking it in December.

Cheers.