Need S-23 advice

So I screwed up at the LHBS the other day picking up some supplies. I meant to get the Saflager 34/70 but instead got 2 packs of the S-23.

I've been looking here and there but can't find definitive advice on styles this will definitely work for - seems like a temperamental yeast that people haven't got a good grip on.

Does anyone have any experience with this yeast, and what type of beer would this work best in?

I tasted various lagers fermented by this yeast and definitely light lagers was better than dark ones and hoppy ones was better than malty ones - so i'd say German Pils and maybe Dortmunder.

One of my colleagues made fine Baltic Porter with this yeast, but this is very specific style.

I just got done using this style on a Czech pilsener. I had read that it was unbearably fruity. Just kegged the beer last night so I don't know 100% for sure but samples along the way have revealed nothing untoward about this strain. I fermented it on the warm side (close to 60) since I read that would improve results. I use mostly 34/70 but would not hesitate to use s-23 again (my LHBS carries s-23 but not 34/70 right now although I am trying to change that).

Northern Brewer recommends s-23 for their American Lager, Czech Pilsener, and Schwarzbier. If you've never done a Schwarz, give it a go! Fantastic dark lager. Racked mine last night for lagering after dry hopping and am really, really looking forward to this one being ready in a couple of months.

I've never used it personally, but I've tasted some fantastic california commons brewed with it.

S-23 is fine. I don't get anything fruity from it. No odd esters, but there is a distinct perfumey aroma / flavor. Not really offensive, I like it.

Here's my write-up, a DRY vs LIQUID test on a pilsner using S-23. I don't use it any more because I prefer the W3/70. If I had the S-23 I wouldn't hesitate to use it for any lager.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/lager-yeast-experiment-s-23-vs-wyeast-2124-a-183454/

passedpawn said:

S-23 is fine. I don't get anything fruity from it. No odd esters, but there is a distinct perfumey aroma / flavor. Not really offensive, I like it.

Here's my write-up, a DRY vs LIQUID test on a pilsner using S-23. I don't use it any more because I prefer the W3/70. If I had the S-23 I wouldn't hesitate to use it for any lager.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/lager-yeast-experiment-s-23-vs-wyeast-2124-a-183454/

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Nice experiment & write up--hadn't seen that before. I'm in the same boat; love the W-34/70 but would use the S-23 without hesitation. My Czech pil using the S-23 was kegged last night and I'll be starting a new pils batch with 34/70 this weekend (different recipe, but only very slightly).

osagedr said:

Nice experiment & write up--hadn't seen that before. I'm in the same boat; love the W-34/70 but would use the S-23 without hesitation. My Czech pil using the S-23 was kegged last night and I'll be starting a new pils batch with 34/70 this weekend (different recipe, but only very slightly).

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Do you say czech because you use saaz? I have always wondered why that term is used... it should be a g. pils.

passedpawn said:

Do you say czech because you use saaz? I have always wondered why that term is used... it should be a g. pils.

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Hmmm, had just picked up the habit of calling Bohemian pilseners Czech pilseners...probably a combination of a number of things (1) Bohemia is somewhat synonymous with the Czech Republic (2) one of my favourite beers is Czechvar pilsener (3) as you note the Saaz hops are Czech in origin.

I should start referring to the style properly as Bohemian pilsener! German pilseners are a distinct style (made one of those as well recently and really liked it)

passedpawn said:

Do you say czech because you use saaz? I have always wondered why that term is used... it should be a g. pils.

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Those are two different but similar styles, normally the Bohemian is a little fuller and has higher IBUS. Also the bopils has less sulfate leading to a softer hop character.

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style02.php

passedpawn said:

S-23 is fine. I don't get anything fruity from it. No odd esters, but there is a distinct perfumey aroma / flavor. Not really offensive, I like it.

Here's my write-up, a DRY vs LIQUID test on a pilsner using S-23. I don't use it any more because I prefer the W3/70. If I had the S-23 I wouldn't hesitate to use it for any lager.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/lager-yeast-experiment-s-23-vs-wyeast-2124-a-183454/

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Holy crap - I am amazed at your statement, and am glad you made it! Personally, I have tried S-23 twice and DESPISED it beyond words. It made my beer taste like a lollipop.

If you loved it that much, I must have had poorly stored s-23 methinks.... while encouraged by your statement, I am still scared to try it again no matter how fresh it is.....

I've used it, but like the others, I prefer 34/70. I wouldn't worry about it.

jjones17 said:

Holy crap - I am amazed at your statement, and am glad you made it! Personally, I have tried S-23 twice and DESPISED it beyond words. It made my beer taste like a lollipop.

If you loved it that much, I must have had poorly stored s-23 methinks.... while encouraged by your statement, I am still scared to try it again no matter how fresh it is.....

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What temp did you ferment at with S-23? Before using it I read elsewhere that higher ferm temp would reduce fruitiness, so I went at the high end of the range.

jjones17 said:

Holy crap - I am amazed at your statement, and am glad you made it! Personally, I have tried S-23 twice and DESPISED it beyond words. It made my beer taste like a lollipop.

If you loved it that much, I must have had poorly stored s-23 methinks.... while encouraged by your statement, I am still scared to try it again no matter how fresh it is.....

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What temperature did you pitch it at?
I just used S-23 for the first time in a lager (AHS 20th anniversary pilsner extract version). I ignored the AHS instructions to pitch at room temp. and then cool after seeing activity. I rehydrated two packs of S-23 at 72ºF for 30 minutes in distilled water to which I had added a little CaCl2 and yeast nutrient. I then added a little cool wort and then gradually cooled the yeast to 48ºF over about a 3.5 or 4 hour period. I then pitched the yeast into 50ºF wort and fermented at 50-51ºF for 8 days, then when SG was 1.020 I let the temp rise to 60-61ºF for a few days, them slowly lowered temp down to lager at about 32-33ºF.
The beer has only been lagering for a week, but I pulled a small sample to try, and although still hazy, tasted pretty good. I did get a faint fruity odor, but no fruity taste, no diacetyl that I could detect, and a very nice clean bitterness in the finish. I think it'll be a pretty good pilsner.

EDIT: I aerated with O2 and a stone for about 45 seconds before pitching the yeast. Also, after the D-rest, I racked to a keg for lagering.

DONT USE IT AT THE TEMP ON THE PACK! Pitch a bit warm (70) to wake up and cool to standard lagering temps I shoot for around 50-55 and leave in primary for a good amount of time as you would a lager(3-4 weeks). I make a stout out of this and it comes out incredibly clean. Drinkable straight out of primary but after lagering for 2-3 months its stellar. Everyone seems to complain of this yeast being estery but treated right its very clean.

I pitched two packs after rehydrating into 42F wort, let it free rise to 50, gave it a rest at 60 for three days and then cold crashed it. I'm not picking up any excessive esters, I seem to have the reverse experience as I've used this on steam beers at ~60F and got quite a bit more fruitiness.

Just drew my first pint of my Czech pilsener made with this yeast. No hint of fruitiness. Very dry finish if anything. Definitely will not hesitate to use again!

Quick question, but I didn't want to start a new thread.

Does anyone know the provenance of S-23?

This website lists it as similar to WLP003 and WY2565, both Kolsch ale yeasts. I'm skeptical for two reasons: 1) Fermentis lists it as a lager (saflager) and 2) Fermentis already has a Kolsch yeast, K-97.

Where did this yeast come from? Who is its daddy?

I've seen that chart before, and some of its equivalents (like for S-23) are complete hogwash.

Here's the best info I've seen on S-23:

"SafLager S-23 Lager Yeast ( Saccharomyces Uvarum) $5.80 per 11 gm sachet.
S-23 is a genuine German style dried lager yeast, developing the best of its lager notes under lowtemperature fermentation. Good flocculation with excellent attenuation. The right choice for the production of a wide range of lager and pilsener beers in cylindro-conical tanks. This bottom fermenting yeast originates from the VLB (Berlin) in Germany and is known under the code RH. The strain is used by Western European commercial breweries and has been reported to produce lagers with some fruity and estery notes.

Recommended temperature range: 9ºC-15ºC (ideally 12ºC). Recommended pitching rate at 12ºC to 15ºC: 80 to 120 g/hl (equivalent to 8 to 12 million viable cells/ml wort). For a pitching temperature below 12ºC, increase the pitching rate accordingly, up to 200 to 300 g/hl at 9ºC. Sedimentation: high. Final gravity: medium."

http://www.brewyourown.com.au/pdf/DCLYeast.pdf

As an aside I've now fermented two separate batches of Bohemian pils with this strain (one warm, around 58 degrees and one cool, around 49 degrees) and they are both fantastic. I had read poor reviews of the yeast but I'd recommend it anytime.

Dear OSAGDER,

You are great. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Besides, who are they? The greatness police? Please.

I think the overly estery reports were from people not using proper pitching rates or rehydrating. S-23 is what I use for my house steam beer, CAP, and bopils.

rockfish42 said:

I think the overly estery reports were from people not using proper pitching rates or rehydrating. S-23 is what I use for my house steam beer, CAP, and bopils.

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Denny Conn was one of the folks reporting excessive fruitiness. I'd be hesitant to question the pitching rates of anyone who has a yeast strain named after him

My guess is that some people have palates that are more refined than my own. It could also be that the strain's fruitiness is much more forward in certain types of beer, or with certain types of hops.

In the end, my own experience with the strain has been very positive. I think it's an important strain because it performs well at higher temperatures--so for those who want to try a lager but don't have optimum conditions (i.e. unable to ferment in the mid 40s to low 50s but can get temps in the mid to high 50s) it's likely the safest choice.

In my limited experience (two batches), temperature makes a big difference. My buddy and I made a BohPils that came out with big apricot/marmalade aroma: fermented at 52-53F. But at 56F, it made a nice German Pils. I was surprised a few degrees would make such a difference. Maybe I overlooked something else somewhere, but that's what I've found.

DeafSmith said:

What temperature did you pitch it at?
I just used S-23 for the first time in a lager (AHS 20th anniversary pilsner extract version). I ignored the AHS instructions to pitch at room temp. and then cool after seeing activity. I rehydrated two packs of S-23 at 72ºF for 30 minutes in distilled water to which I had added a little CaCl2 and yeast nutrient. I then added a little cool wort and then gradually cooled the yeast to 48ºF over about a 3.5 or 4 hour period. I then pitched the yeast into 50ºF wort and fermented at 50-51ºF for 8 days, then when SG was 1.020 I let the temp rise to 60-61ºF for a few days, them slowly lowered temp down to lager at about 32-33ºF.
The beer has only been lagering for a week, but I pulled a small sample to try, and although still hazy, tasted pretty good. I did get a faint fruity odor, but no fruity taste, no diacetyl that I could detect, and a very nice clean bitterness in the finish. I think it'll be a pretty good pilsner.

EDIT: I aerated with O2 and a stone for about 45 seconds before pitching the yeast. Also, after the D-rest, I racked to a keg for lagering.

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Just correcting myself, I checked my records since my original post and I used it more than twice.

I tried fermenting at 45ish, 55ish, 65ish. I tried starting high then cooling, or starting low, then afterwards doing a diectyl rest. On and on.... Great to hear you are liking it.

osagedr said:

Denny Conn was one of the folks reporting excessive fruitiness. I'd be hesitant to question the pitching rates of anyone who has a yeast strain named after him

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He overpitched, at least once
http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=82328&view=findpost&p=973970
Here's another experienced brewer in the same thread listing styles he medaled with using s-23
http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=82328&view=findpost&p=973378

I accidentally found this while trying to figure out if my 34/70 will work for a planned steam beer this next weekend.

I'm enjoying a delicious schwarzbier right now that I made with S-23...

I have a fullers esb ( kinda) clone in the lager fridge now with the s23. Can't say for certain, but I am happy so far. It stayed strong and clean, didn't really need a d- rest but I upped the temp to get the fg down. Looks great, tastes great, must be... Well we will see. But I like it so far.