Correct direct heat recirculation & sparge question

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SuperiorBrew

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Can anyone explain in detail the proper way to do this.
A few points to address are:

How fast to recirc and when to start and stop.

Continue to recirc while sparging?

Simple manifold or sprayer type sparge arm.

Why not sparge all at once, beersmith keeps telling me to do say a 6 gallon and then a 3 gallon, why not just do all 9 at once?

Any other tips or tricks
 
Man, I'm not sure there's any one "correct" method. Some things to consider:

Why are you recirculating the mash?
- To raise mash temp? Then you recirculate during the step.
- Maintain even mash temp? Then you constantly recirculate, adding heat as necessary.
- To vorlauf? Then you recirculate before you drain the tun.

Your sparge process isn't necessarily tied to the mash recirculation, unless you're talking about the brutus 20 method (which I tried recently). You can recirculate and either batch or fly sparge.

I've tried a few things and here's what I've done. If I'm doing a single infusion mash, then I don't recirculate during the rest. Recirculating tends to lose some heat and you have to constantly add a little back with the burner. So I'll start recirculating during the mashout, usually with the pump on full flow, with the burner on low, returning the wort back to the mash via a sparge ring (any similar method should work). If batch sparging, then for each batch I add the sparge water, turn on the pump, recirculate for several minutes, then drain the tun.

Did I help at all?
 
Lil' Sparky said:
Man, I'm not sure there's any one "correct" method. Some things to consider:

Why are you recirculating the mash?
- To raise mash temp? Then you recirculate during the step.
- Maintain even mash temp? Then you constantly recirculate, adding heat as necessary.
- To vorlauf? Then you recirculate before you drain the tun.

Your sparge process isn't necessarily tied to the mash recirculation, unless you're talking about the brutus 20 method (which I tried recently). You can recirculate and either batch or fly sparge.

I've tried a few things and here's what I've done. If I'm doing a single infusion mash, then I don't recirculate during the rest. Recirculating tends to lose some heat and you have to constantly add a little back with the burner. So I'll start recirculating during the mashout, usually with the pump on full flow, with the burner on low, returning the wort back to the mash via a sparge ring (any similar method should work). If batch sparging, then for each batch I add the sparge water, turn on the pump, recirculate for several minutes, then drain the tun.

Did I help at all?

I have a new to me brew rig
2303701510101759406S200x200Q85.jpg

that I have done two 10G batches with, I have not been circulating during the mash but I do after it for 20 minutes or so with the burner on low trying to slowly raise the temp. When I hit the mid 160's I start sparging. The first batch I just used a sparge ring that I made. I used all the sparge water at once with some recirculation at the same time. It probably took 15 minutes to get my 13 gallons and I did hit my OG and ended up at 73% effiency.
The second batch I did the same way except I used a spinning sparge arm from NB
abt-sparger.jpg

and sparged slowly it took about 45 minutes+ to do the 10G of sparge water. I ended up hitting the OG again and got 75%.
(Beersmith said to do a 6G and another 4G)

I guess I was just unsure about after the mash and recirc I was just basically never messing with the grain bed again just rinsing it and or recirculating it more.

I was getting 80-82% with my cooler setup and batch sparging. I am not real concerend with the few % points I have dropped just making sure I am on the right track.
 
Good thread. I wish I already had my rig setup so I could provide some real input here, but I also wonder about constant recirculation. I think it is MOST benefitial if you have some kind of automatic temp control whether it be direct fired (gas solenoid) or HERMS. I suppose you could also trigger the pump with the temp controller as well.

I'm going with single tier, one pump so I plan to either pump recirc and direct fire the mash (during mashout) which is vorlaufing at the same time, then divert the output hose to the kettle to run off. Move the input hose to the HLT, output to the MLT and pump batch sparge water, Stir, Recirc, pump to kettle. I realize it sounds like a lot of clunking with disconnects, but I'll only know how bad it is when I put it to practice.

Sorry, I know I rambled off topic but I'm kinda putting my thoughts down to see if anyone finds big faults with my plans.


Oh, I can suggest that you don't recirculate during the sparge because you'll need to be pumping the runoff into the kettle. Efficiency is always increased when you get the sugary wort out before or during letting the fresh water in. I don't know the entire story but it has to do with soluability equilibrium. It's the same reason by breaking batch sparge infusions into many tiny batches is more efficient than one big one.
 
Bobby, I think your plan is sound.

I also think constant recirculation is best done in some automated fashion, a la Brutus 10 or digital HERMS/RIMS. I don't really have much interest in that right now. Maybe someday.

Bobby_M said:
Oh, I can suggest that you don't recirculate during the sparge because you'll need to be pumping the runoff into the kettle. Efficiency is always increased when you get the sugary wort out before or during letting the fresh water in. I don't know the entire story but it has to do with soluability equilibrium. It's the same reason by breaking batch sparge infusions into many tiny batches is more efficient than one big one.

I know what you're saying here, but I just want to clarify. It is OK to drain the tun, add sparge water, recirculate, and drain again.

If you don't drain the tun, add the sparge water while you're recirculating, then it's similar to the brutus 20 method. It's not "bad", but it will result in lower efficiency. With this method you can eliminate the separate HLT if you think about it.
 
Thanks. I'm relatively familiar with the brutus20 process and I have read your thread. Very cool of you to experiment with it. For me, I'm not ready for two pumps so I can't even play with that method now. Being that batch sparging gets me high 80's efficiency, I suspect the reiterative mash/sparge (which is probably the closest thing to describing brutus20) would yield a considerably lower efficiency for me. Probably something like 70% which is close to a single infusion batch sparge. It may eliminate the need for the HLT (which has a capex of about $100 for me) but a 20% increase in efficiency would offset it by probably the 10th batch. Silly math is making my head hurt.
 
I have a 2 pump hard plumbed system. So what you are saying is is should recirculate till im happy then transfer it to the kettle.
Then if i am going to use my sparge ring I should add the sparge water, stir and recirculate and drain.
If I am going to use the sparge arm I should just start sparging on the already compacted grain bed and transfer to the kettle at the same reate as I am sparging?
 
SuperiorBrew said:
I have a 2 pump hard plumbed system. So what you are saying is is should recirculate till im happy then transfer it to the kettle.
Then if i am going to use my sparge ring I should add the sparge water, stir and recirculate and drain.
If I am going to use the sparge arm I should just start sparging on the already compacted grain bed and transfer to the kettle at the same reate as I am sparging?

Kind of. Let's clarify something first. Is your intention to batch or fly sparge?

If fly sparging, you DON'T want to drain the MLT first. It's better to keep the water an inch or so above the grain bet. In this case, your only chance to recirculate is before you begin the sparge.

If batch sparging, you want to drain the MLT, add the sparge water, let it sit, and then drain (and repeat). There's lots of variations here, including stirring and voraufing. If you're going to recirculate, I'd say recirculate during the "let it sit" part. This will allow the sparge water to rinse as much of the sugars as possible.
 
Lil' Sparky said:
Man, I'm not sure there's any one "correct" method. Some things to consider:

Why are you recirculating the mash?
- To raise mash temp? Then you recirculate during the step.
- Maintain even mash temp? Then you constantly recirculate, adding heat as necessary.
- To vorlauf? Then you recirculate before you drain the tun.

So how fast can you ramp the temperature using a direct-fired recirculation? How high do you keep the flame? How fast do you move wort?

Where do you monitor temperature? In the tun outflow? In the body of the mash?

My tun is a converted keg with a full false bottom in it - I assume I just pump from the bottom of the tun to the top with the flame going?

If I can get a good bulkhead-mounted thermometer for my mash tun, I may just do this instead of building a RIMS/HERMS.
 
Bobby_M said:
Thanks. I'm relatively familiar with the brutus20 process and I have read your thread. Very cool of you to experiment with it. For me, I'm not ready for two pumps so I can't even play with that method now. Being that batch sparging gets me high 80's efficiency, I suspect the reiterative mash/sparge (which is probably the closest thing to describing brutus20) would yield a considerably lower efficiency for me. Probably something like 70% which is close to a single infusion batch sparge. It may eliminate the need for the HLT (which has a capex of about $100 for me) but a 20% increase in efficiency would offset it by probably the 10th batch. Silly math is making my head hurt.

I'm with ya. I'm really not a Brutus 20 "advocate", and I don't blame you for wanting to stick with your awesome efficiency. (I hope mine goes up when I start using my new mill) I was mostly trying to address the first line by saying it's OK to recirculate after each sparge addition, before you drain the tun. The process SuperiorBrew described was similar, and I agree, won't be as efficient as other sparge techniques.
 
Jo3sh said:
So how fast can you ramp the temperature using a direct-fired recirculation? How high do you keep the flame? How fast do you move wort?

Where do you monitor temperature? In the tun outflow? In the body of the mash?

My tun is a converted keg with a full false bottom in it - I assume I just pump from the bottom of the tun to the top with the flame going?

If I can get a good bulkhead-mounted thermometer for my mash tun, I may just do this instead of building a RIMS/HERMS.

You don't want to raise the temperature very fast. I think 1-2 degrees / minute is safe. Faster than that and you risk scorching the wort or mash. I try to keep the flame low enough so that it doesn't raise the temp faster than that. I usually pump the wort at full flow. In my mind this keeps the temperature more uniform throughout the mash and more gently raises the temperature.

I monitor the temp low in the mash itself. I think a better place to monitor is on the drain itself, especially if you wanted to automate this process.

Your full false bottom would be perfect for a direct-fired MLT. Have you checked out the brutus 10 site?

I'm not going to claim any advantages over RIMS/HERMS, but at the same time, I haven't been convinced those options are better either. (should I run for public office or what? ;))



DISCLAIMER: I've been answering a lot of these questions, but in no way do I claim any expertise. I've been doing this for my last 1/2 dozen brews or so + direct-fire + stirring before that. I hope some other direct-fire recirculation folks will pipe in here.
 
Lil' Sparky said:
Your full false bottom would be perfect for a direct-fired MLT. Have you checked out the brutus 10 site?



Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Now that I look at it again, I have indeed seen the BRUTUS 10 site before, but it's been a while. I think for now, I will work toward setting up a manual variation of that rig. Later, I can think about adding temperature sensors and controllers.

And a tip-dump for my mashtun.

It would be nice to dough in with the entire amount of mash water to hit my first rest, then ramp through additional rests and mashout.
 
I have done a few more batches since this thread and here is what I have been doing:

I mash in 162-166º (depending on what I want to hit) and the mash settles in at 150-154º

I cover the tun for 10 minutes to let the grain bed set & then start recirculating at about 50% flow for 5 minutes then full flow (march pump) I have abandoned the sparge arm and the manifold in favor of the round plastic top from a cheap mixing bowl, it floats nice and has a raised ring all the way around it so the water flows off of it pretty evenly.

If the temperature drops more than 1º I fire the burner and raise it back up slowly (takes 2 minutes tops with low flame), this will hold it for about another 10-15 minutes then I repeat as needed. I have a 6" fixed thermometer in the tun and also use a digital to monitor the recirculating wort coming out of the hose (it hits the probe and bowl lid at the same time).

After 60 minutes I start raising the temp, once up to 165 I start adding the 168-170º sparge water to the recirculating wort and at the same time I start the transfer to the boil kettle. I have a hard plumbed CIP 2 pump rig so it is 3 valves, one for sparge water, one for recirculation and one for the transfer, I can easily manipulate these to maintain 168 in the mash and the recirculating wort. It takes about 15-20 minutes to complete the sparge/transfer.

Something else I have been doing is whirl pooling while the wort is heating before the boil, I figure it keeps it moving and less chance I will get any carmalization before the boil starts things moving in the kettle.

I run the boiling wort thru CFC for 15 minutes to sanitize and then whirlpool during the last 5 minutes of the boil to make a trub cone & then pump the wort thru the CFC and into the fermenter, if I slow the flow of the wort slightly it drops the temp down to 71-73º.

I have been hitting my OG pretty much exactly (today I was 1 point over) and my efficiency has been in the 77-79% with a brew house efficiency of 75-76%
 
SuperiorBrew said:
I have done a few more batches since this thread and here is what I have been doing:

I mash in 162-166º (depending on what I want to hit) and the mash settles in at 150-154º

I cover the tun for 10 minutes to let the grain bed set & then start recirculating at about 50% flow for 5 minutes then full flow (march pump) I have abandoned the sparge arm and the manifold in favor of the round plastic top from a cheap mixing bowl, it floats nice and has a raised ring all the way around it so the water flows off of it pretty evenly.

If the temperature drops more than 1º I fire the burner and raise it back up slowly (takes 2 minutes tops with low flame), this will hold it for about another 10-15 minutes then I repeat as needed. I have a 6" fixed thermometer in the tun and also use a digital to monitor the recirculating wort coming out of the hose (it hits the probe and bowl lid at the same time).

After 60 minutes I start raising the temp, once up to 165 I start adding the 168-170º sparge water to the recirculating wort and at the same time I start the transfer to the boil kettle. I have a hard plumbed CIP 2 pump rig so it is 3 valves, one for sparge water, one for recirculation and one for the transfer, I can easily manipulate these to maintain 168 in the mash and the recirculating wort. It takes about 15-20 minutes to complete the sparge/transfer.

Nice post. Can you show a picture or explain how your hose is attached and hitting the bowl lid and thermo probe? thanks.
 
korndog said:
Nice post. Can you show a picture or explain how your hose is attached and hitting the bowl lid and thermo probe? thanks.

This was just going to be a temporary set up but it worked out good and I have been using it ever since.

11999-lid002.jpg
 
Great. Thanks for the picture. I get the idea now. Am I correct to assume you were not getting enough flow out of the manifold and sparge arm?
 
korndog said:
Great. Thanks for the picture. I get the idea now. Am I correct to assume you were not getting enough flow out of the manifold and sparge arm?
Correct, blew the ends off the sparge arm, it would take well over a hour with the arm, and close to a hour with the ring.
 
SuperiorBrew, sounds like we have almost the exact same method. I've been away from the comp for awhile, so I wasn't able to chime in. I have a 2 tier setup with converted kegs, check it out here if you want: www.mybrewery.shutterfly.com the pics are a little old and I need to update them.
A few things that I do different:
I recirculate the whole time for step mashes and only about the last 15 minutes of the mash for single infusion. I start draining the wort the same time I start sparging and keep the water about an inch above the grain bed.
1) I sparge VERY slow and usually take around 45-60 mins OR 1qt/minute. I just bought a refractometer to check my runnings.
2) I used to use the boiling wort to sanitize my CFC, however this would most often stall the boil when it returned from the CFC due to the residual water from the last brew. Now I just boil a small amount of water in my HLT and use that to sanitize my cfc. As a bonus, you can use that water for cleanup afterwards.

cheers!
 
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