Brewtarget 2.0 Update

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Orest said:
Just getting started, and got Brewtarget. In the hops window, additions display as
0.0 IBU, and so main window shows 0.0 IBU.
I also had trouble w/ 64 bit mac dl. 32 works fine.
Orest
Click to expand...

What sort of trouble? I'm learning how to package for Mac as I go, so the feedback would be useful. It worked on my wife's Macbook Pro, but I know how much that's worth most of the time.
 
Orest said:
Just getting started, and got Brewtarget. In the hops window, additions display as
0.0 IBU, and so main window shows 0.0 IBU.
Orest
Click to expand...

Go into your equipment profile and set the hop utilization to 100. You may need to reset the equipment profile on your recipe.

If that doesn't fix the problem, either respond here or enter a bug on https://bugs.launchpad.net/brewtarget

Mik
 
I’m doing 60 minute partial boils, using extract, with a late addition of half of the extract (last 15 minutes or at flameout).

Brewtarget sets Hop Utilization at 100 by default. Doing a 60 minute boil, shouldn’t it be less? Something like 91 springs to mind from previous reading, but I can’t cite a source offhand.

Also, Setting hops Use to Aroma or Boil if adding the hops at say the last 5 minutes affects IBU. Setting it to Boil raises the IBU. What’s the proper Use setting for hops if added at say 15, 5 and 1 minute before flameout.

Finally, the late addition of half the extract affects IBU, but not the color. Shouldn’t the SMR be lower with the late addition?
 
pbuelow said:
What sort of trouble? I'm learning how to package for Mac as I go, so the feedback would be useful. It worked on my wife's Macbook Pro, but I know how much that's worth most of the time.
Click to expand...
After downloading BT 2.0 for Mac, the 64 bit version, the dmg loads fine, and the app gets copied to my HD. But when I try to launch, I get the error "application has unexpectedly quit". There is a retry option, which never works. No such trouble with the 32 bit version. Hope this helps,
Orest
 
Biere_Titan said:
I’m doing 60 minute partial boils, using extract, with a late addition of half of the extract (last 15 minutes or at flameout).

Brewtarget sets Hop Utilization at 100 by default. Doing a 60 minute boil, shouldn’t it be less? Something like 91 springs to mind from previous reading, but I can’t cite a source offhand.

Also, Setting hops Use to Aroma or Boil if adding the hops at say the last 5 minutes affects IBU. Setting it to Boil raises the IBU. What’s the proper Use setting for hops if added at say 15, 5 and 1 minute before flameout.

Finally, the late addition of half the extract affects IBU, but not the color. Shouldn’t the SMR be lower with the late addition?
Click to expand...

I can only address the middle question easily. The proper use setting is boil. The use field is derived from the beerXML standard. According to that standard, an aroma hop does not add to the IBU totals. In reality, any hop addition when the wort is > 160F will result in some amount of alpha acid will be isomerized and, hence, increase the IBU.

I will have to research the answers to the first and third question.

Mik
 
I just wanted to pass on that I am pretty happy with the changes you've made. This is a huge improvement in usability (drag n drop etc) and does everything I need at this point.

Question, do you use data Sean Terrell put together for refractometer calcs? I know he did a lot of work on improving existing calcs in the last 1 to 2 years and came up with some pretty accurate formulas.

I am using the brewtarget_2.0.0-1_amd64.deb on linux mint 14 and I haven't found any problems yet - installed well.
 
Biere_Titan said:
I’m doing 60 minute partial boils, using extract, with a late addition of half of the extract (last 15 minutes or at flameout).

Brewtarget sets Hop Utilization at 100 by default. Doing a 60 minute boil, shouldn’t it be less? Something like 91 springs to mind from previous reading, but I can’t cite a source offhand.

Also, Setting hops Use to Aroma or Boil if adding the hops at say the last 5 minutes affects IBU. Setting it to Boil raises the IBU. What’s the proper Use setting for hops if added at say 15, 5 and 1 minute before flameout.

Finally, the late addition of half the extract affects IBU, but not the color. Shouldn’t the SMR be lower with the late addition?
Click to expand...

That was some fun research. I have learned an awful lot about hop utilizations and late additions.

The hop utilization percentage on the equipment profile is basically to fudge the results. All of the formulae used to calculate IBUs are basically guesses. They are good guesses, based on a lot of data and some impressive math, but still guesses. The only real way to know what IBU a beer is is to send it to a lab for analysis. The hop utilization percent is used if you have had several of your beers profiled by such a lab, and notice that the measured IBU is always 105% of the Tinseth calculated IBU. Most homebrewers should just leave that as 100% and learn what 50 IBUs (Tinseth) tastes like and go from there.

The SRM should be adjusted for a late addition. At present, there doesn't seem to be any formula I could find that would describe what the difference is. It should also be noted that any such formula would have to take many other variables into account (pH, intensity of the boil, etc.). Braukaiser has a nice (although short) write up http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing#Maillard_reactions
Until the research is done and the formulaes are generated, we are stuck doing our best to estimate.

Mik
 
Thanks for the replies mikfire. The braukaiser.com article is really interesting. As simple as making beer is at the most basic level, it still amazes me the big variations that can result from subtle differences in the brew/fermentation process.

And thanks to everyone working on Brewtarget, it's great piece of software.
 
Just DL'd it and started to play with it. It won't save my equipment specs for some reason. Also, it stopped working and crashed right as I was typing in the Notes section.
 
MaltnHops said:
Just DL'd it and started to play with it. It won't save my equipment specs for some reason. Also, it stopped working and crashed right as I was typing in the Notes section.
Click to expand...

v2.0.0 has known problems with both. We will be releasing v2.0.1 very soon to address these issues.

Mik
 
jflongo said:
Will 2.0.1, install in the same directory, so that we don't have to re-import everything?
Click to expand...

Yes. There are no changes being made to the database, so it should just pick up the one you have already converted.

You shouldn't have had to import anything manually anyway. I am rather puzzled by that, because I spent the better part of 3-6 months getting that all to work correctly. I suspect I needed to do better, cross-platform testing (sorry, I'm a linux geek) and I am working on getting a win7 environment built.

Mik
 
Just curious if this has been brought up? I just added some Agave and Sugar to my recipe, selected add after boil(Late Addition). When I generate instructions, those were never added.
 
jflongo said:
Just curious if this has been brought up? I just added some Agave and Sugar to my recipe, selected add after boil(Late Addition). When I generate instructions, those were never added.
Click to expand...
That's a new one. I will open the bug report.

Thanks.

Mik
 
First of all, thanks a lot for this software. I've been using it for all of my recipes for a while now and it does a great job. I'm a bit curious as to what you mean by this though:

mikfire said:
You shouldn't have had to import anything manually anyway. I am rather puzzled by that, because I spent the better part of 3-6 months getting that all to work correctly. I suspect I needed to do better, cross-platform testing (sorry, I'm a linux geek) and I am working on getting a win7 environment built.

Mik
Click to expand...

I recently upgraded to 2.0 and had a go at importing all the old stuff. I have about 30 recipes, a few equipment profiles, and a bunch of custom added fermentables and hops in the ingredients section (I live in New Zealand so the available hops/malts is fairly different to what I assume might be common in the US in particular). I tried to export the entire database in 1.2.4 and import this into 2.0 but the export gave three XML files while the import expected a single sqllite file, or something like that as far as I can remember.

Importing recipes was fine, and while the equipment profiles seemed to transfer locally with the recipe, they weren't available from the equipment tab. I couldn't find any way to import my custom malts/hops, so I chose to stay with 1.2.4 for now.

Am I missing something here? Is there an easy way to transfer this stuff when upgrading? (win7 64 here)

Thanks again for your work, and I can't wait for the inventory management stuff to get in there! :mug:
 
skunk27 said:
Am I missing something here? Is there an easy way to transfer this stuff when upgrading? (win7 64 here)

Thanks again for your work, and I can't wait for the inventory management stuff to get in there! :mug:
Click to expand...

It was supposed to have just worked. I will work on it this weekend and see if I can figure out why it isn't just working, but it will take me some time. Setting up a windows build environment is tricky, and I am not very good at windows.
 
mikfire said:
It was supposed to have just worked. I will work on it this weekend and see if I can figure out why it isn't just working, but it will take me some time. Setting up a windows build environment is tricky, and I am not very good at windows.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot. Is this assuming the new version was installed in the same directory as the old one? That's something I didn't try.
 
skunk27 said:
Thanks a lot. Is this assuming the new version was installed in the same directory as the old one? That's something I didn't try.
Click to expand...

That is a really good question. On the linux side, all of the data lives in the same place regardless of where you install the binaries. If the data lives in the installation directory on Windows, that would explain a few things very nicely. If this is working the way I suspect it may be, I will have an explanation and an easy workaround.

I have my windows env built and was able to successfully build brewtarget last night, so I should be able to figure this out this weekend.
 
playing with brewtarget for the first time. when i select corriander and ginger it adds vanilla and grains of paradise...
 
tagz said:
playing with brewtarget for the first time. when i select corriander and ginger it adds vanilla and grains of paradise...
Click to expand...

If you are saying you selected and hit add, and it added the wrong thing, that is a known issue. Double click on it instead.
 
When exporting a recipe and then importing the XML into Brewzor, the recipe always comes up with the name "transfer to secondary". If I export a recipe out of Brewzor into BT, the recipe name comes in just fine. Could this be a BT problem or would it be more on Brewzor's end? How could I tell which way is right from just the XML code?
 
mikfire said:
I can only address the middle question easily. The proper use setting is boil. The use field is derived from the beerXML standard. According to that standard, an aroma hop does not add to the IBU totals. In reality, any hop addition when the wort is > 160F will result in some amount of alpha acid will be isomerized and, hence, increase the IBU.

I will have to research the answers to the first and third question.

Mik
Click to expand...

The beerXML standard is rather annoying on this point. What with all the experiments (here and elsewhere) homebrewers are doing with late additions, and the articles out there claiming 10-15% utilization (and even at least one on-line recipe builder incorporating such utilizations), it would seem that, at the very least, there should be the option of the user overriding the 0 IBU values so that the data at the top of the recipe more closely represents the expected outcome.

Case in point: I'm playing around with a ESB/APA recipe using only FWH and steep additions (with DH) and, while Brewer's Friend recipe builder shows 41 IBU, Brewtarget shows 15. So, while I can find a way to get a better idea of expected bitterness, it would be nice if my recipe could reflect that.

Not really a complaint, as I understand the standard is there for a reason, just maybe a suggestion for something to incorporate in a future version.
 
Ki-ri-n said:
When exporting a recipe and then importing the XML into Brewzor, the recipe always comes up with the name "transfer to secondary". If I export a recipe out of Brewzor into BT, the recipe name comes in just fine. Could this be a BT problem or would it be more on Brewzor's end? How could I tell which way is right from just the XML code?
Click to expand...

The XML spec if simple if verbose. You can either compare the two XML files directly (vimdiff if you're in *nix, textpad or notepad++ if Windows) and see if you can spot the differences. Alternately, open a bug report on Launchpad (https://bugs.launchpad.net/brewtarget) and attach the two XML files and we will attempt to figure out what's going on.

Mik
 
All right. For all of our Windows users, I have figured out why your databases weren't translated and have a few workarounds for you. mea culpa for not testing this on Windows as I should have. I will be attempting to make sure that doesn't happen again.

The root cause is that on Linux, the data directory is the same regardless of versions installed (/home/mik/.config/brewtarget, for example). The process by which we determine if we need to do a conversion involves looking for the existence of certain files in your data directory. On windows, though, the data directory changes with each upgrade so brewtarget v2 never saw the older files to import them.

So you can fix this in a couple of ways, depending on just what you want to do and how much fussing you want to do.

Method 1
This method will work if you have installed but never run brewtarget v2.

  1. Navigate to your brewtarget v1.2.4 data directory (c:\program files\brewtarget-1.2.4\data by default)
  2. Copy database.xml, recipes.xml and mashs.xml
  3. Navigate to your brewtarget v2.0.1 data directory (c:\program files\brewtarget-v2.0.1\data by default)
  4. Paste the three files
  5. Run brewtarget v2.0.1
It will take a few extra seconds as we process your existing data and import it into the new format. Once done processing, you should get a pop-up saying we have converted your XML and tell you where you can find the old files if you want/need them.

Method 2
This method will work if you have installed and run brewtarget v2 previously. If you have already manually imported your recipes, you may want to look at Method 2a or Method 3 instead.
  1. Navigate to your brewtarget v1.2.4 data directory (c:\program files\brewtarget-1.2.4\data by default)
  2. Copy database.xml, recipes.xml and mashs.xml
  3. Navigate to your brewtarget v2.0.1 data directory (c:\program files\brewtarget-v2.0.1\data by default)
  4. Paste the three files (yes, these are the same steps as above)
  5. Run regedit
  6. Navigate to HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\brewtarget\OrganizationDefaults
  7. Delete the "converted" key and its value
  8. Run brewtarget v2.0.1
This will do the same thing as a method 1, and pop the same message.

Method 2a
This is intended for people who have manually translated their recipes, but are would like all their interesting stuff (equipment profiles, custom fermentables, etc.) back.

Follow the Method 2 steps, but only copy the database.xml and mashs.xml files in step 2.

Method 3
This is for the hard core. This will use some older code we developers used while working on all of this before we had the automatic import. This method isn't pretty, but it will work.

  1. Copy your XML files as shown in the previous two methods. This isn't required, but makes the command lines much shorter.
  2. Open a command window
  3. cd c:\program files\brewtarget-2.0.1\bin
  4. Run: brewtarget.exe --from-xml ..\data\database.xml
  5. Answer "yes" to include the new items
  6. Answer "yes" to save your changes
  7. Run: brewtarget.exe --from-xml ..\data\mashs.xml
  8. Answer "Restore"
  9. Answer "yes" to include the new items
  10. Answer "yes" to save your changes
  11. Run: brewtarget.exe --from-xml ..\data\recipes.xml
  12. Answer "Restore"
  13. Answer "yes" to include the new items
  14. Answer "yes" to save your changes
  15. Run brewtarget v2.0.1
  16. Answer "Restore" one more time
There main difference between this and method2 or 2a is that you don't have to edit the registry by hand, but you do get to answer a lot more questions. You don't have to do the final import of the recipes.xml if you have already done that translation by hand. Just to be clean, you probably should remove the XML files from the data directory too.

Mik
 
I tried typing notes into a recipe today and it crashes the program. Tried several times, same results. Known issue?
 
I am having trouble setting up an equipment profile for 11 gallon batches. I can create a new profile but the calculated batch and boil size are incorrect. they are still the same for the 5g batch
 
tagz said:
I tried typing notes into a recipe today and it crashes the program. Tried several times, same results. Known issue?
Click to expand...

Can you describe this better? There is a known issue if you type anything into the large text box in the brewday tab, but I haven't seen, and I bet Mik hasn't either, a 100% repeatable crash from the Extras tab.
 
I'll give it another try today. It happened any time I typed into the "tasting notes" or "notes" box. My saved copy would show the first letter i typed but no text appeared in the box. Will report back.
 
I really like the changes you have made in the 2.0 release.

Any ETA on RPM packages for 2.0.1?
 
I have several users accounts on this computer, and the changes i make in Brewtarget in one account arent made in the other accounts. I've tried the merge databases feature but it doesnt seem to make any difference. Every time I open brewtarget it says there is multiple databases and would I like to "roll back" or "restore". How can I make the changes done in one account happen in brewtarget regardless of what account I'm in?
 
kzhusker said:
I really like the changes you have made in the 2.0 release.

Any ETA on RPM packages for 2.0.1?
Click to expand...

Umm. No idea. It appears we have only done Debian builds. Let me ping some people on that. I try to keep myself to just writing the code. I *hate* release builds :)

Mik
 
turboninja64 said:
I have several users accounts on this computer, and the changes i make in Brewtarget in one account arent made in the other accounts. I've tried the merge databases feature but it doesnt seem to make any difference. Every time I open brewtarget it says there is multiple databases and would I like to "roll back" or "restore". How can I make the changes done in one account happen in brewtarget regardless of what account I'm in?
Click to expand...
Assuming you are in UNIX, because I pretty much suck at Windows.

1. Create a directory that all of your accounts have access to.
2. Start brewtarget
3. Tools -> Options -> Directories and set the directory to what you created in step 1
4. Exit brewtarget.
5. From whichever user you feel is most authoritive, say:
cp ~/.config/brewtarget/database.sqlite [ path to directory from step 1 ]
6. You may have to do steps 1-3 for each user.
 
tagz said:
I'll give it another try today. It happened any time I typed into the "tasting notes" or "notes" box. My saved copy would show the first letter i typed but no text appeared in the box. Will report back.
Click to expand...

Yes. This is a known issue (bug ID 1157705). I'm not able to recreate it any longer, so I *think* it was fixed in v2.0.1. If you could let us know what OS and what version of brewtarget, it would help.

Mik
 
orion7144 said:
I am having trouble setting up an equipment profile for 11 gallon batches. I can create a new profile but the calculated batch and boil size are incorrect. they are still the same for the 5g batch
Click to expand...
Is this v 2.0.0? If it is, we have the fix and it is in v2.0.1. We should get the RPMs built soon, but we do have debian images and Windows available from launchpad(https://launchpad.net/brewtarget/+download).

If it isn't, please let me know because I really swear I have squashed this bug.

Mik
 
On the brewday tab, where it lists your efficiency into BK, Projected OG, Brewhouse Efficiency etc....what exactly does it mean if it says your efficiency is too high for style? For example, I brewed an American Pale Ale with a brewhouse efficiency of 74.39% and it is colored red and when I hover over it, it says the efficiency is too high for the style.
 

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