is this illegal?

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/bar/2939378114.html

I just saw this during my dailly trolling of cl and after a chuckle i was wondering if this guy was in for some trouble?

I think he is in for trouble. Selling homebrew is illegal and he is just putting it out there on CL for all to see.

yes

I dunno...he isn't really selling it. he is offering it as compensation for services rendered. that said, if i DID do something like that, I wouldnt post it on CL for everyone to look at

He's not selling. He's bartering. The ATF has a lot more important things to worry about than some guy bartering homebrewed beer for remodel work.

It is offered as a barter but it seems very gray to me.

Can you really make enough money homebrewing 5 gallons to be worth your materials cost + time and effort?
Hell, my prep time and clean up time is measured in hours when one considers brewing and bottling (cleaning botthles, etc)
What if you have to toss a batch once in a while.
As for brewing 2 gallons, you can make a profit off that?

It seems like it works out to minimum wage.

LandoLincoln said:

He's not selling. He's bartering. The ATF has a lot more important things to worry about than some guy bartering homebrewed beer for remodel work.

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Yes. And DHS has more important things to do than investigate every complaint about parents that spank their children.

And, yet ...

it's illegal, don't fool yourselves.

the worst that will happen to this guy is that his ad will be flagged and removed...

Don't fool yourselves, the ATF would raid this guy's house just to prove a point and make headlines. There may be a gray area between selling and trading but no judge is going to fall for it and you'd still be charged with illegally selling alcohol.

ArcLight said:

Can you really make enough money homebrewing 5 gallons to be worth your materials cost + time and effort?
Hell, my prep time and clean up time is measured in hours when one considers brewing and bottling (cleaning botthles, etc)
What if you have to toss a batch once in a while.
As for brewing 2 gallons, you can make a profit off that?

It seems like it works out to minimum wage.

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really he is just trading one skill for someone elses. Maybe the brewer is bad at being handy around the house. It's worth his time and materials to give a 5 gal batch to someone that knows how to fix things, has tools, etc.

quick5pnt0 said:

There may be a gray area between selling and trading

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Actually there isn't. Selling and bartering unlicensed booze is illegal.

quick5pnt0 said:

Don't fool yourselves, the ATF would raid this guy's house just to prove a point and make headlines. There may be a gray area between selling and trading but no judge is going to fall for it and you'd still be charged with illegally selling alcohol.

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Now that's funny. Wait, you're serious? Now that's REALLY funny.

LandoLincoln said:

Now that's funny. Wait, you're serious? Now that's REALLY funny.

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Yeah, whenever these threads pop up, it's hard pressed to find a case where a homebrewer has been convicted for selling homebrew. I see to recall the numbers are right around zero.

maybe it's not rigorously enforced or even possible to really enforce on a 5 gallon scale... lol... and i'm pretty sure nobody on this forum would argue it's wrong or immoral to do this... it is technically illegal though.

what if the handyman or whatever pitched his own yeast? doesn;t that make "his" alcohol?
thats how the brew-it-yourself places work around here.. they do all the work and you just pitch your own yeast

Seems like the same answer for every post like this: "Yes, it's illegal. No, you won't get caught if you don't tell the world you're doing it."

no difference between this and my granddad doing 7 (twice) for whiskey.

The guy is ASKING for handcuffs.

amandabab said:

no difference between this and my granddad doing 7 (twice) for whiskey.

The guy is ASKING for handcuffs.

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Popcorn?

I feel like you could take donations. That way the home brewer is just receiving a donation and the drinker is just receiving some free beer.

brewingmeister said:

Popcorn?

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lol good ol' Popcorn Sutton.

gauzzastrip said:

I feel like you could take donations. That way the home brewer is just receiving a donation and the drinker is just receiving some free beer.

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Yeah, that wouldn't look at all like selling.

Holy crap! guazzastrip just figured out a loophole that allows us all to sell our beer! Well done, sir.

donations, trade, barter. Their probably is no home brewer that hasn't swapped a bottle for something.

the difference is advertising the intent on a nationally viewable list.

Your regulations may vary but, the Federal Regulations that govern oklahoma are pretty clear that compensation for homebrew is illeagal. Even goes so far to say that while I may share, it must be consumed on my premises excepting only for purposes of competitions.

The person that posted the ad is an idiot and things like that only put the entire hobby in danger. If it becomes a problem the our wonderful government will feel the pressure to get involved and do something about it in the form of more regulations on home brewing or god-forbid, making it illegal again.

It is one thing to discuss what is legal and what is not and it is another to post something like this on craigslist.

/rant

For discussion purposes. Someone mentioned having them pitching the yeast. I don't see why that would be illegal since it is their beer then. Anyone else have an option on this?

BrewKnurd said:

Yeah, that wouldn't look at all like selling.

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But you're not selling it. You just received a donation because someone thinks you're that great of a person. And you just gave them some home brew because you thought they'd enjoy it.

gauzzastrip said:

But you're not selling it. You just received a donation because someone thinks you're that great of a person. And you just gave them some home brew because you thought they'd enjoy it.

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Okay. Despite having passed laws allowing HomeBrew in Oklahoma, the ABLE commission continually disallows HomeBrew at Beer Festivals. They aren't selling the beer, right? All they are doing is offering samples to further promote a hobby, right?


Wrong.

Since the festival have a cover charge, or ticket charge, then the Federal Govt construes this (loosely) as sales.

Plain and simple. If you accept compensation for your beverage, monetary or otherwise, you've sold it and have violated Federal Law. Same applies to a competition if it has an entry fee. This is construed as a sales.

All the laws I've read in regards to homebrew say that it is illegal to sell or barter your homebrew. In fact most sources site that you can't even give away more than a 6 pack at a time.

amandabab said:

no difference between this and my granddad doing 7 (twice) for whiskey.

The guy is ASKING for handcuffs.

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Right, no difference. Except for the fact that it is legal to homebrew beer and wine, but it is illegal to home distill any spirit... Oh wait, that makes it different, doesn't it...

I always interpreted the law as it was illegal to sell homebrew for any legal tender or for profit, and that bartering/trading was perfectly fine. I think the only way this guy is going to be in any trouble is if he accepts any money for homebrew. And the only reason that would be illegal, is because uncle Sam wants his cut of the money.

HollisBT said:

Right, no difference. Except for the fact that it is legal to homebrew beer and wine, but it is illegal to home distill any spirit... Oh wait, that makes it different, doesn't it...

I always interpreted the law as it was illegal to sell homebrew for any legal tender or for profit, and that bartering/trading was perfectly fine. I think the only way this guy is going to be in any trouble is if he accepts any money for homebrew. And the only reason that would be illegal, is because uncle Sam wants his cut of the money.

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That's right, you could trade your beer for silver, or for jewelry, or for diamonds, but not dollars. Hot dern I'm opening a beer stand tomorrow!

LandoLincoln said:

He's not selling. He's bartering. The ATF has a lot more important things to worry about than some guy bartering homebrewed beer for remodel work.

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Same thing as far as the ATF and IRS are concerned. What he's doing is definitely illegal.

BTW, if you have a question about this, email Gary Glass at the AHA. He knows more about homebrew laws than all of us put together.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Okay. Despite having passed laws allowing HomeBrew in Oklahoma, the ABLE commission continually disallows HomeBrew at Beer Festivals. They aren't selling the beer, right? All they are doing is offering samples to further promote a hobby, right?


Wrong.

Since the festival have a cover charge, or ticket charge, then the Federal Govt construes this (loosely) as sales.

Plain and simple. If you accept compensation for your beverage, monetary or otherwise, you've sold it and have violated Federal Law. Same applies to a competition if it has an entry fee. This is construed as a sales.

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My LHBS gives out samples in the back, I buy their supplies, am I therefore paying for the homebrew samples?

All I'm saying is that the donation is separate from the home brew. You paid to enter the beer festival so I guess I could see how that would be different(although at a beer festival I went to last year my LHBS was there with a tent serving up samples). I'm talking about a personal donation or gift. It's like if someone just gave you $20 because it's your birthday and then you gave them some home brew (which is legal in my state). That doesn't mean they paid you for the home brew. There's no way to prove that the 2 are associated.

I don't live in OK so I don't know what all your state laws are about home brewing.

Denny said:

Same thing as far as the ATF and IRS are concerned. What he's doing is definitely illegal.

BTW, if you have a question about this, email Gary Glass at the AHA. He knows more about homebrew laws than all of us put together.

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that is like paying crack for a hooker.. IRS and DEA will step in

Wow, this one took off like wildfire.

kosmokramer said:

Wow, this one took off like wildfire.

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Yea you can tell none of these guys have been in front of a federal judge.

I think selling wort is a brilliant idea. "Take this sweet water home and dump this vial in it. That'll be $50 sir!"

I suspect it's illegal and it's so small no one cares so like the guy said that it'll be flagged. That'll be the end of it. I can't see the ATF setting up a sting for this.

On the topic of an all powerful and oppressive government, my neighbor is trying to get a security clearance and the FBI had to hand deliver a letter to my house (requesting an interview) because they can't find my phone number!!!!!

With that in mind, I just have a hard time seeing SWAT taking this guy to jail.

gauzzastrip said:

But you're not selling it. You just received a donation because someone thinks you're that great of a person. And you just gave them some home brew because you thought they'd enjoy it.

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good luck getting that argument past a judge. I'm not saying you ever would be in front of a judge for a scheme like this, but if you were, that explanation would hold approximately no merit.

If your logic worked in a legal setting, no one would ever get busted for prostitution. "you see, sir, she just happened to want to have sex with me, and I just happened to want to make a donation to her college fund!"

The new big brother building in Utah will have the ATF come down on him with black helicopters in the dark of night.