RIMS Heating Tube

Can anyone who's actually built or used a RIMS help me with some advice.

I was going to go with the a short immersion heating element - with the 1" threaded fitting. 1.45kw at 120V. I was looking at what other RIMS builders have inserted their heating elements into, and most use some sort of metal tube, with a "T" fitting at each end. Then one end of the tube is plugged (but removable for cleaning) and the other has the heating element inserted. The right-angled part of the T's are terminated in barbs for silicon hosing.

My question is - what's the best size of SS pipe to use? One inch diameter is the minimum, cheapest and doesn't require a bushing for the heater, but some builders seem to go up to 2". This is much more expensive (more than twice the cost) - but does it confer any advantage? I would have thought more wort gets left behind with the larger pipe?

Any advice?

I used 2" copper for mine. I went to the local recking yard and found some 2" in the scrap and even found a 2" elbow. The other fittings for the setup were spendy though. I will post pics next week as I am Almost done with the build, just waiting for UPS and some quick dsconnects.

BE CAREFUL with that element... you will have a hard time finding an ULWD element that is 120VAC. You do NOT want a HWD element in contact with your wort.

The Pol said:

BE CAREFUL with that element... you will have a hard time finding an ULWD element that is 120VAC. You do NOT want a HWD element in contact with your wort.

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Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what either ULWD or HWD is and why you wouldn't want to use one.

EDIT: Nevermind, I found this site.
http://www.camco.net/faqelement.cfm

If you siimply buy a standard heating element, you are going to scorch the heck out of your wort.

ULWD = Ultra Low Watt Density (50 or so watts/sq in.)
HWD = High Watt Density (standard is about 150W/sq in.)

If you dont know the differences, there are a lot of threads here on electric heating and kettles, the information in them is invaluable when building things of this sort.

Many people with RIMS use a 220v 4500w water heater element. At 110v it will net 1125w and have a very low heat density.

Exactly... using a 120V element from the start will probably not yield suitable results.

Emian said:

My question is - what's the best size of SS pipe to use? One inch diameter is the minimum, cheapest and doesn't require a bushing for the heater, but some builders seem to go up to 2". This is much more expensive (more than twice the cost) - but does it confer any advantage? I would have thought more wort gets left behind with the larger pipe?

Any advice?

Click to expand...

To get back to your question, the bigger tube is to allow more wort near the heating element, theoreticly lessening the chance of scorching. I have no practical experience with HERMS, I'm in the planning stage, but I'm guessing that flow rate is more important. Right now I'm planning on going with 1 1/4" unless I find a compelling argument otherwise.

somecallmetim said:

Many people with RIMS use a 220v 4500w water heater element. At 110v it will net 1125w and have a very low heat density.

Click to expand...

That's the set up I'm using...
BTW I've found that 1.5 Inch copper is working just fine. 1.25 is too small (although the element will slip inside- there is a risk of side wall contact) 2 inches IMHO is too big for efficiency. The larger the diameter of the pipe used, the less contact with the wort... aka smaller pipe ensures greater contact and better heating.

I use the standard 1500 Watt High Density element in a 1" copper tube. No issue with scorching as long as you keep the wort moving. I use a pump and recirc with the valves wide open.



Linc

For using the 240VAC 4500W elements on 110v - what sort of amp draw will that element have - is there any way to calculate that? At 240v that element would draw 18.75 amps (W/V=A), which is easy enough to figure out - but does that calculation still apply when you halve the voltage?

Around 9-10 amps

Electric Heating Element Calculator

Original Heating Element ratings:
Enter Volts 240 volts
Enter Power in Watts. 4500 watts
Calculated Current 18.8 amperes
Calculated Ohms 12.8 ohms

Your actual numbers:
Enter your Voltage 120 volts
Resulting Current 9.4 amperes
Resulting Power 1125 watts

N5629 said:

For using the 240VAC 4500W elements on 110v - what sort of amp draw will that element have - is there any way to calculate that? At 240v that element would draw 18.75 amps (W/V=A), which is easy enough to figure out - but does that calculation still apply when you halve the voltage?

Click to expand...

You can calculate it with Ohms law: V=I*R. The element is going to have a set resistance, so the current will vary with voltage. You can either use a multimeter and measure the resistance through the element, or you can estimate based on the rating of 4500W.

Assuming there is 4500 watts at 240V, P= V*I 4500W = 240V * I, or I = 4500/240 = 18.75. Usng V=I*R 240V = 18.75 * R, R=240/18.75 = 12.8ohms. At 120V, the current would be 120V = I * 12.8ohms : I=9.375amps. Power would be 9.375amps * 120volts = 1125watts.

Hopefully i didn't mess any math up above

missing link said:

I use the standard 1500 Watt High Density element in a 1" copper tube. No issue with scorching as long as you keep the wort moving. I use a pump and recirc with the valves wide open.

Linc

Click to expand...

Do you get much heat loss with the copper? Or do you have it insulated in some way?

I don't insulate mine but I do insulate the mash tun as that's where I have a tremendous amount of heat loss but now that you mention it I'll probably insulate the tube and plumbing.

I have a 5500 watt uld element running off 123v on average. My clamp on fluke showed about 8.1 amps.

DO you guys ever think about potting those heating element electrical connections so that they are not just sitting there in the open?

The Pol said:

DO you guys ever think about potting those heating element electrical connections so that they are not just sitting there in the open?

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I probably would.. I've almost convinced myself to build one. But, I've been shocked by 110V so many times - I have a light switch in my basement I keep forgetting to put a plate on and I ram my fingers into it about once a day. I suppose mixed with water it would not be fun... I'd probably pot it like you did on your BK element.

I'm thinking 1 1/2" SS for mine. I've priced it out at Stainless Steel Fittings and it's about $75. Plus price of electronics, which I still can't decide between a PID and SSR or a Love/Ranco...

A RIMS heater like this shouldnt require a PID. There isnt much "thinking" that goes into turning on and off an element where the temp is measured in the same vessel (tube). It would be like putting a PID and SSR on an HLT to heat it... overkill IMHO. PIDs are great so that you dont get overshoot and such, but you shouldnt have any overshoot when you are measuring the outlet temp on such a small heating tube.

I think potting those connections would be a wise idea. I mean, there is no protection at all there against touching them, or getting water splashed on them. I have kids too... and they mess around in the garage when I brew, Id hate for them to get hit with 120 or 240VAC.

The JC A419 can switch up to a 16A load.

I built a cover out of square tubing with nuts welded toward the end on all sides for set screws. There are no exposed connections on my rig. I ran a batch of test water yesterday and my heating losses in the copper are minimal. The biggest problem I had was the directins for hooking and programing the pid and hookup for the rtd but that is figured out. Well off for a day of ice fishing.

The Pol said:

It would be like putting a PID and SSR on an HLT to heat it... overkill IMHO.

Click to expand...

Ummm... I have a PID and SSR for my HLT...

that alluminum stand off strap won't oxidize the copper?

I agree with POL that a PID and SSR is overkill for a HLT - unless you are doing bigger batches. The Ranco ETC and Johnson a419 controller are limited to 8 amps at 240 VAC and 16 amps at 120 VAC. That won't even run a 2000 watt element. I wouldn't want anything less than 3000 watt element (240 VAC) for my HLT if I was doing 10 gallon or bigger batches. That said, I think I could run my PID in on/off mode without any big impairment in performance. In fact, I have not reprogrammed my PID (autotune mode) since doubling the sizes of my batches from 15 gallons to 30-35 gallons.

Agreed... PID and SSR are great if you have a large load to switch, but otherwise it is overkill. Back to the question, I personally think a Ranco or JC controller could easily run a RIMS heater. There is not much "thinking" to do in there which a PID is good for, and your load will be low, 8-10A? If you are measuring and switching at the source as is the case with a RIMS heater, the benefits of the PIDs "thinking" capability will be minimized.

I've been trying to imagine the operation here and I think a standard on/off might have problems. Let's say you're trying to step mash from 122F to 149F. Assuming your temp probe is setup like the picture, right near the return to the MLT. You had the controller set to 122F, now you change it to 149F. The incoming wort is 122, flows past the element and potentially hits 149 by the time it hits the probe. The power is cut. The new bit of wort now flows past a cool element hits the element and cuts it back on, etc. What differential or ASD settings would stop the relay from going nuts but still ramp up to your desired temp?

Maybe I'm completely off on the idea that wort can be heated that quickly in a single pass through the heating element. Maybe one pass at a typical flow rate would only raise by 5F or so. In that case, it's not as bad.

Bobby_M said:

What differential or ASD settings would stop the relay from going nuts but still ramp up to your desired temp?

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Yea, that's what I was wondering as well. I know my Johnson Control (keezer) by default will not switch on/off very quickly (configurable, AFAIK). My PID goes on/off at 2 second when "cycling" by default (can go lower) and it never overshoots (well, I can do stupid things and make it, like adding a ton of cold water to an already hot HLT.)

I'm not sure how fast 1000 watts would heat the wort at 3-5 gallons/minute either. SO maybe a Ranco/Love/JC would be fine... I have a JC, so if I build a tube, maybe I should just test it.

If it has never been tried, then anything we say is speculation, try it!

The Pol said:

I personally think a Ranco or JC controller could easily run a RIMS heater. .

Click to expand...

The sensor on the Ranco is not threaded - any ideas on getting it in the wort flow? I was thinking a 1/2" T on the RIMS tube outlet with a drilled bung in the "T" with the thermistor inserted into the bung's hole.

Any other suggestions - I might try the Ranco first if I can get one cheap on Ebay.

Ian

Emian said:

The sensor on the Ranco is not threaded - any ideas on getting it in the wort flow? I was thinking a 1/2" T on the RIMS tube outlet with a drilled bung in the "T" with the thermistor inserted into the bung's hole.

Any other suggestions - I might try the Ranco first if I can get one cheap on Ebay.

Ian

Click to expand...

#1. Never, EVER insert anything in a bung hole. Also, the thermistor is too small to fit tightly in your bung hole. I speak from experience.

#2. Compression fitting?

the pol said:

#1. Never, ever insert anything in a bung hole.

Click to expand...

twss.

Has anyone heard of using the heating element from a coffee maker for a RIMS system? I hear they are in the 1 to 1.3 KW range and i would assume are made of food safe materials. Also super cheap. Ive looked around but haven't found anyone mention using one yet.

I'd be very surprised if you could find a coffee maker element that would fit well in a rims tube type system - I've had a couple of espresso machines, and one had external elements (Gaggia Classic), and the other has a coil shaped element in a tank shaped boiler (Berezza). They also tend to have odd flanges and the like on them.

Water heater elements are a better fit to water flowing over them along a tube. They're also much cheaper than espresso machine elements (~$50-$100) and you can get them in your local DIY store, saving shipping - you shouldn't need to spend more than $15-$20 on a water heater element. The pipe is the expensive part of a RIMS tube.

It's funny you say that because I've been thinking along the same lines. Some espresso machines use something called a thermoblock. It's basically a big block of aluminum that heats up and has a bunch of channels cut into it to pump the water through. I've been looking for a larger version of one but so far haven't found anything.