how to tell if a used keg is 'legal'?

I found a few used kegs on craigslist, how do I know if they are legal to have or if they still belong to a brewery?

bitterman35 said:

I found a few used kegs on craigslist, how do I know if they are legal to have or if they still belong to a brewery?

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The ONLY true legal keg is bought from the brewery and has a receipt showing that it was in fact the keg and not the contents. Beyond that, the keg ALWAYS belongs to the brewery.

Kegs can also be bought legally from Sabco for a premium but, honestly, I do not know what legal (if at all) methods they employ to acquire their kegs.

Dont ask, dont tell

My understanding was that the deposit more than covered a new keg, so they were if anything happy if it didn't come back. Not true?

cheezydemon said:

My understanding was that the deposit more than covered a new keg, so they were if anything happy if it didn't come back. Not true?

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You're new around here, right?


EDIT: In a slightly more helpful vein: not true. A new keg costs far more than any deposit. This has been a major issue for breweries; particularly when the scrap value of a keg rises above the deposit, and people start to steal them or sell them for scrap rather than returing for deposit. Been discussed here ad nauseum, and you can Google "brewery keg theft" or something similar, and read away.

so if i buy one and take it to my brew shop to have it cut, will i get "busted?

Please review, this is a very touchy subject.

I don't completely believe the "If you don't have a receipt it automatically belongs to the brewery" stuff. So if I buy a retired keg and lose the receipt it's ownership reverts to the brewery? hmmm..

As for getting busted... probably not.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Beyond that, the keg ALWAYS belongs to the brewery.

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I don't think the keg belongs to the brewery if they sell the keg, to a person, a company or scrapyard.

If you do a search, you'll see that this discussion has occurred many times over, and that these responses are the same every time...

The short answer to your question is, there is no way to tell.

Bike N Brew said:

You're new around here, right?


EDIT: In a slightly more helpful vein: not true. A new keg costs far more than any deposit. This has been a major issue for breweries; particularly when the scrap value of a keg rises above the deposit, and people start to steal them or sell them for scrap rather than returing for deposit. Been discussed here ad nauseum, and you can Google "brewery keg theft" or something similar, and read away.

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Indeed, or at least I haven't gotten into kegging yet. Hope I did not offend!

bottom line is this: regardless of if its legal or not, your LHBS will not call the Keg Cops on you... Just call em up, ask em if they convert kegs, and ask what you need to bring with you...

mr x said:

I don't think the keg belongs to the brewery if they sell the keg, to a person, a company or scrapyard.

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You are right. The keg no longer belongs to the brewery IF they sell the keg.

GilaMinumBeer said:

The ONLY true legal keg is bought from the brewery and has a receipt showing that it was in fact the keg and not the contents. Beyond that, the keg ALWAYS belongs to the brewery.

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That was his point. Without the receipt, therefor proof of ownership, the keg does indeed belong to the brewery.

I agree that the keg police probably aren't going to come calling. But the ethical thing is to acquire these kegs is to purchase from the breweries. From what I have heard, the breweries are more than willing to sell damaged kegs.

Uh-oh, the keg police just took away your keg!

MNBugeater said:

That was his point. Without the receipt, therefor proof of ownership, the keg does indeed belong to the brewery.

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I don't think so. If I lose the receipt for my tv, does it now belong to Best Buy? Not likely. Unless those kegs have serial numbers, it looks to me like a possession is nine tenths of the law deal.

If they're willing to do the deposit deal, IMO, you have the right to lose your deposit and keep the keg. It's a deposit. That means if you turn it back in you get your money if not you don't. The decision is yours. Ethics is the game at play here.

I very recently started looking for a used keg and put an ad on CL here in P-town. I was really looking for someone from a brewery or wholesaler just getting rid of some old stuff. I very clearly stated that I am a homebrewer and wanted a scrappy one to cut apart for a DYI brewpot.

The responses I got were SHADY. One guy refused to give me a price, but wanted me to come look at the keg and give him an offer. Others were barely coherent.

The keggle looks kind of fun/cool, but at this point I'm just going to drop cash on a gigantic brewpot to avoid the type of people I got responses from. Very weird stuff.

I don't know if you guys around the country have this same issue, but around here all of the meth/crack/whatever heads have been stealing copper and other valuable metals from wherever they can find it and selling it for cash. I think some of these folks fell into that category.

As Irregularpulse posted, that is something else to consider. Once deposit has been paid to the brewery, does the keg belong to them anymore?

In Nova Scotia, if insurance has been paid to a person for stolen items, they no longer own the item, or even have any claim on it in most cases. I work with two people who have had 8-10 guns stolen from each of them. Because insurance was paid for them, when they were recovered by the police, they were destroyed.

mr x said:

As Irregularpulse posted, that is something else to consider. Once deposit has been paid to the brewery, does the keg belong to them anymore?

In Nova Scotia, if insurance has been paid to a person for stolen items, they no longer own the item, or even have any claim on it in most cases. I work with two people who have had 8-10 guns stolen from each of them. Because insurance was paid for them, when they were recovered by the police, they were destroyed.

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You'd think they would sell that sort of stuff at an auction and give the money to charity, or use it for operating expenses and reduce your tax burden.

blacklab said:

I don't know if you guys around the country have this same issue, but around here all of the meth/crack/whatever heads have been stealing copper and other valuable metals from wherever they can find it and selling it for cash.

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Around here, people have taken to stealing copper before verifying that it isn't energized. sizzle sizzle. That's happened at least twice in the last few years.

Here's one I couldn't believe:

http://halifax.metronews.ca/index.cfm?sid=78448&sc=89

blacklab said:

You'd think they would sell that sort of stuff at an auction and give the money to charity, or use it for operating expenses and reduce your tax burden.

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Yeah, a couple of those rifles were very nice. One guy was not impressed he couldn't get it back. The funny thing was, both guys found the thieves themselves. They were selling the guns in local papers and radio.

the point of the deposit or security deposit has been lost here. It's a deposit in an effort to keep you honest and give you an incentive to return the keg. The keg was never sold, only the contents of the keg are being sold.

It's kinda like this...You go to Home Depot to rent, I dunno, a lawn aerator. In addition to the rental fee you also have to pay a deposit usually anywhere from 50 to 200 dollars. The deposit does not mean that if you don't return the Aerator the cost for the equipment hads been paid. It's an incentive for you to not screw the supplier.

These are the facts.

Now, I bought all my kegs from a scrapyard and converted them myself. Wre they legal? In the breweries eyes NO. In the eyes of the police it may be questionable because I do have a sales receipt for said kegs to show that I did in fact pay for the kegs. It's doubtful, but for all I know the scrapyard received the kegs from a distributor. Again, doubtful.

Chances are that your LHBS has acquired their kegs in the same manner. I know mine does and I was just lucky enough to figure out what scrapyard they get them from.

I get all mine from my local bar. The owner and bartender are friends of our "brew crew" and when a brewery refuses a keg to bring back, they keep em for w/e use they want. That could be an easy way to get a legal keg... Call up a bar where you know the owners and ask them how often their kegs get refused for return. Its the same way the brewery does it. Once a keg is rejected, they have to salvage it or sell it.

As far as the stolen guns, I don't think the police are going to sell stolen property, ESPECIALLY guns, for charity... It wouldn't warm my heart to know that a stolen gun helped feed a homeless man after it was sold to the highest bidder... let them stick to their wife's bake sales...

Ahhhhh.....

It has been a while....

Where's my favorite stool...?

NoClueBrewMaster said:

As far as the stolen guns, I don't think the police are going to sell stolen property, ESPECIALLY guns, for charity... It wouldn't warm my heart to know that a stolen gun helped feed a homeless man after it was sold to the highest bidder... let them stick to their wife's bake sales...

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The feds do it with cars and everything else from drug raids all the time. Why not sell the guns to legal citizens and use the cash for something constructive? I bet the homeless guy could give a f%^k how you feel.

mr x said:

Around here, people have taken to stealing copper before verifying that it isn't energized. sizzle sizzle. That's happened at least twice in the last few years.

Here's one I couldn't believe:

http://halifax.metronews.ca/index.cfm?sid=78448&sc=89

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You guys have a crime called 'gangsterism'? That is really, really rad.

GilaMinumBeer said:

the point of the deposit or security deposit has been lost here. It's a deposit in an effort to keep you honest and give you an incentive to return the keg. The keg was never sold, only the contents of the keg are being sold.
.

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I don't think the point of the deposit has been lost so much, but is it really known. If the bar the keg goes missing from pays the $35 deposit, that is the end of their responsibility. The brewery does not still expect them to return the keg. A little different scenario than the deposit on a rented aerator. Similar to you returning a bottle for deposit. You have been compensated, and now how do claim ownership?

BierMuncher said:

Ahhhhh.....

It has been a while....

Where's my favorite BEER...?

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Fixed that fo ya!

mr x said:

I don't think the point of the deposit has been lost so much, but is it really known. If the bar the keg goes missing from pays the $35 deposit, that is the end of their responsibility. The brewery does not still expect them to return the keg. A little different scenario than the deposit on a rented aerator. Similar to you returning a bottle for deposit. You have been compensated, and now how do claim ownership?

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If that reasoning gives you a clear concience, so be it.

I have no interest in debating or further explaining ethical behavior to what are assumed to be responsible adults.

Not to go totally off topic, but Blacklab...instead of posting to CL hoping for a brewery to contact you, contact them directly. On a whim one day I contacted Widmer, McMenamins and Laurelwood and they all responded within 10mins of me sending them an email. McMenamins and Laurelwood were no go, but Widmer does this kind of thing all the time. They even have a wait list.

mr x said:

I don't think so. If I lose the receipt for my tv, does it now belong to Best Buy? Not likely. Unless those kegs have serial numbers, it looks to me like a possession is nine tenths of the law deal.

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This is why I laminated my receipt from Widmer and have it in my wallet at all times!!! Actually I'm just a nerd like that.

GilaMinumBeer, no need to get edgy. Just discussing the issue. It's not about 'ethics' entirely, it's also about what would happen in a court of law? How do you insist something not in your possession is yours without serial numbers or a theft report? I lived with a person who spent his adult life in court, and I know what I think would happen.

Its like my grandma always used to say, why buy the cow when you get the sex for free?

GilaMinumBeer said:

If that reasoning gives you a clear concience, so be it.

I have no interest in debating or further explaining ethical behavior to what are assumed to be responsible adults.

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Hey...let's be cool! No need to start name calling!

Kilted Brewer said:

Not to go totally off topic, but Blacklab...instead of posting to CL hoping for a brewery to contact you, contact them directly. On a whim one day I contacted Widmer, McMenamins and Laurelwood and they all responded within 10mins of me sending them an email. McMenamins and Laurelwood were no go, but Widmer does this kind of thing all the time. They even have a wait list.

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Yeah, dude, I know. The CL thing was before I asked you for advice. FYI - McMens uses some sort of wacky old keg anyway which is apparently FNG for our uses.

<waiting list guy>

blacklab said:

I very recently started looking for a used keg and put an ad on CL here in P-town. I was really looking for someone from a brewery or wholesaler just getting rid of some old stuff. I very clearly stated that I am a homebrewer and wanted a scrappy one to cut apart for a DYI brewpot.

The responses I got were SHADY. One guy refused to give me a price, but wanted me to come look at the keg and give him an offer. Others were barely coherent.

The keggle looks kind of fun/cool, but at this point I'm just going to drop cash on a gigantic brewpot to avoid the type of people I got responses from. Very weird stuff.

I don't know if you guys around the country have this same issue, but around here all of the meth/crack/whatever heads have been stealing copper and other valuable metals from wherever they can find it and selling it for cash. I think some of these folks fell into that category.

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+1

I looked into kegs, and decided to buy a true brew pot instead (15-gallons). The brew pot is 100% legit and ready to go right out of the box (no cutting or drilling required). Of course, I don't get to post pics of my polished keggles here on HBT, but that is a price I'm willing to pay.

mr x said:

I don't think the point of the deposit has been lost so much, but is it really known. If the bar the keg goes missing from pays the $35 deposit, that is the end of their responsibility. The brewery does not still expect them to return the keg. A little different scenario than the deposit on a rented aerator. Similar to you returning a bottle for deposit. You have been compensated, and now how do claim ownership?

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I think if you skipped out on returning a keg for the deposit, they might decide not to sell you beer again. I would imagine it ends up being a fool me once, fool me twice type of scenario. A new keg costs a lot more then 35$ dollars. And the scrap price of stainless is only going up. Otherwise what would stop someone from just buying the kegs to sell to scrap over and over and over and over and ....

"Deposit" does not mean the same thing as "Bill of Sale". They have very different definitions.

Personally, if I wanted to purchase a keg, I'd just check my local scrap yard frequently, maybe let them know what I'm looking for so they can set one aside when it comes in. I would feel morally fine purchasing a keg this way. It puts the burden of legality on the scrap yard.

cheezydemon said:

Indeed, or at least I haven't gotten into kegging yet. Hope I did not offend!

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No, I hope I didn't. I was just kinda surprised that at 1500+ posts you hadn't yet been a part of one of these horse-floggers.

I love it... E-lawyers vs E-gangsters...

Not to feed the flames here, but I think there is no need to insinuate that we are not "responsible adults" All adults have different opinions on just about everything... Just because our opinions might differ from others doesn't make us irresponsible or morally inept.