Dreaming of all grain brewing

HI-

Right now I am limited to partial mash brewing given my setup, I think. I have been using a crappy old cooler for doing the mini mash, but wonder what else I should be doing with my equipment. When I started, I bought a 15 gallon kettle, with a false bottom, thinking I would go into all grain brewing some day. But after reading all the stuff on this site, it looks like the best way to go all grain (unless doing RIMS or HERMS) is with a few good quality plastic coolers.

I have some space issues at the moment and can't really go out and buy any more huge pots and plastic coolers are too big for my space as well, I think.

Is there a way I can use my 15 gallon stainless pot and false bottom to do EVERYTHING? My thought was I could heat the water up to mash temp, add the grain, then keep heating at a slow rate to keep the temp constant, but then I thought about it a bit more. Since the heating is all occurring underneath the false bottom and I don't know how much of a temperature differential there would be between the 2 sides of the false bottom, isn't there a VERY good chance of massively overheating the mash on the underside and killing off all the enzymes? I can check temps above the false bottom with no problem, but is that adequate?

My thought was then to run this 1st wort off to the bottling bucket, then add tap water and heat directly again to batch sparge. But again, I wonder how much danger of overheating there is, extracting tannins, etc. I could run the sparge water to my carboy, but I would worry about the carboy going from 70 degrees to 170 instantly.... would it shatter?

After both of these runnings, I would need to clean the pot, remove the false bottom, add on my hopstopper and then add both the first wort and the sparge water combined.

Does this system seem like I will run into problems with extracting tannins, scorching, having lots of difficulty controlling the mash temperature, destroying the enzymes, etc? Is direct firing the mash tun OK to do, or am I just asking for problems?

Klaus

try brewing in a bag for your first try

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/

I live in an apartment and have space issues as well. I have been using the Papazian ZAP PAP bucket in bucket method for over a year now. I drilled lots of small holes (yes this takes a bit of time to get enough holes but it's not that big of a deal, just sit down and have a beer while you do it) in a food grade bucket and then put it inside a bottling bucket with a spigot for lautering. I mash in a plain 6 gallon food grade bucket (wrapped with towels and covered with my kettle lid to hold the heat) and transfer to the ZAP PAP post mash to lauter. I use my boil kettle as an HLT and sparge/lauter into my mash bucket, then trasfer to the kettle when I've used all the sparge water. THis system is extremely efficient, takes up little space because the buckets stack inside each other, and is very inexpensive. People always complain about drilling the holes but you only have to do it once and it's a great system. I also think the plastic in the food grade buckets is better than the plastic in coolers (I've never looked into it but they certainly don't smell as strong). All of my space consuming gear (burner, kettle, mash/lauter ton, and chiller) fit nicely on the bottom shelf of the storage cabinet in our car port.

You said you have a "crappy old cooler"...how big is it? I have a 15 gallon pot and a 7.5 Gal cooler. That's all I use for AG. Multiple buckets and stuff just sounds like a PITA

JonK331 said:

I live in an apartment and have space issues as well. I have been using the Papazian ZAP PAP bucket in bucket method for over a year now.

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This contraption created my only, ever, stuck sparge in about 50 batches. 1st time. I think it was a wheat. Threw it away and never looked back. Love papa for what he's done for the obsession, though.

BTW, did you notice that Zap Pap backwards is pappaz(ian)?

passedpawn said:

This contraption created my only, ever, stuck sparge in about 50 batches. 1st time. I think it was a wheat. Threw it away and never looked back. Love papa for what he's done for the obsession, though.

BTW, did you notice that Zap Pap backwards is pappaz(ian)?

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I have never had a stuck sparge in over thirty batches. I brew wheat beers with this method regularly and don't even bother with rice hulls. ZAP PAP is known to be good at preventing stuck sparges, prevents channeling, and promotes high efficiency. Maybe you drilled your holes too small or ground your grain too fine. Sure if I put flower in the thing it will get stuck, but it would stick in anything else as well. I seriously don't know why people hate the ZAP PAP so much. I think it's great.

This is the method I use: http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2009/04/14/brew-in-a-bag-biab-all-grain-beer-brewing/
1 kettle, no cooler...works great.

I got a free 36 quart cooler because someone lost the plug for the spigot. I spent about $8 converting it into a mashtun. I still use my Walmart stainless steel 16 quart stock pot ($17 for an 8, 12, and 16 qt pot set) for heating my water on the stove. I bought a turkey fryer online for $63 shipped. My immersion chiller was about $70. All small enough to fit in a small closet or corner and way under $200 total.
There is no reason to not go AG, especially when you consider you save $5-10 on every batch over extract kits/ingredients. If you brew a batch a week, the equipment has paid for itself.

Starderup said:

There is no reason to not go AG, especially when you consider you save $5-10 on every batch over extract kits/ingredients. If you brew a batch a week, the equipment has paid for itself.

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Agreed. And the beer is much better. THere are ways to keep it small and affordable, you just have to explore the options and figure what works for you. Many people see those expensive towers and figure they have to save $1000 and have a garage to go all grain. That's just not true.

Starderup said:

There is no reason to not go AG, especially when you consider you save $5-10 on every batch over extract kits/ingredients. If you brew a batch a week, the equipment has paid for itself.

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If I could drink a batch a week I would have a hard liver, indeed!

Seriously, though, thanks everyone for the response. I had thought of trying it the same way I do partial mash- a bag and a cooler. But I already HAVE a false bottom for my steel 15 gallon mash tun- I just am not sure if that is the way to go. My cooler sheds like 10 degrees in an hour, and that, at least, pretends to be insulated. I can't imagine how much heat a stainless steel container will lose, but I imagine it is far more.

If I give this a try, should I just use the false bottom, or just a bag, or should I use both the bag and the false bottom? The bag would certainly make cleanup a LOT easier.

Klaus

humann_brewing said:

try brewing in a bag for your first try

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/

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+1 on the biab stove top method, ive done 12 batches so far this method and have been getting 82% efficiency.

I use a 8 gallon pot for the boil and a 5 gallon pot for the mash. Deathbrewer says to limit the grain to under 13 pounds but i did a imperial espresso porter with 15 pounds, mashed a little thicker than normal so i could use more sparge water and had efficiency of 79%

cannot go wrong with brew in a bag. some of the best beer i made was with biab. clear with very high efficiency. tasted great and really cheap to start. two pots and a bag... so good, that i think people are getting taken for a ride when they buy those starter brewing kits.

Hooray for biab! I'm going to try a partial mash for my next project, using the biab method. Seems perfectly suited to my small space and limited budget.
The only thing I'm a bit confused about is timing to achieve maximum efficiency.

... but there are plenty of other threads to search on the forums for that info

OK, thanks. Looks like Brew in a bag seems to be quite the popular method. I'll give it a try, I guess, don't know if it will be next batch or the one after. Appreciate the advice.

Klaus

IMO and how I started was that I bought a 20$ 5G IGLOO drinking vessel and got a 5G paint strainer bag that fit just about perfectly inside...Id heat the mash water as suggested and poured that over the grains and stired well, then when it was time to sparge and mash out I just sat by the cooler and held the button on the spigot...BIAB basically...But when I had the additional funds I bought the strainer hose and nipples along with the ball valve and converted it slowly (parts are at Lowes/Home Depot for around 20 or so)...Worked like a champ...Bear in mind that it will only hold between 12-13# of grain but its enough to get you started and figure out the process...That would be my advice...Hope you have a great experience in whatever you decide...


After I was tired of pushing the Dispensing button...lol

wow Recusit8m, you gotta have some iron thumbs to sit there and hold that stupid button, not to mention the patience.

JonK331 said:

Agreed. And the beer is much better. THere are ways to keep it small and affordable, you just have to explore the options and figure what works for you. Many people see those expensive towers and figure they have to save $1000 and have a garage to go all grain. That's just not true.

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The reason I did not go AG sooner was that I thought exactly as you say. I thought I would need several pieces of stainless equipment that probably would cost $500 each, pumps, etc.

When I read that you can make a mashtun from a Coleman/Igloo cooler, I realized that I had one in the garage already. Within about two weeks, I was doing my first batch, and it definitely gives you more control over the final product.

BTW, I only lose one or two degrees over an hour, so it may be time to start looking for another cooler at yard sales!

Recusit8m said:

when it was time to sparge and mash out I just sat by the cooler and held the button on the spigot...BIAB basically...

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You were aerating the heck out of that wort, too! I guess you were satisfied with the results, because you don't mention anything about off flavors, but I just wonder if you noticed any difference once you went to a valve (and I assume a hose).

Here is a link to a compact All Grain System that doesn't take a lot of space. You can build your own system starting with a BrewStove frame. www.backhousebrew.com

even though, I have never tried the biab method (mainly because I built a cooler mash tun right away), I know several people that have and have had excellent results.
and even though, I am admittedly one of the people that have to build every new gadget (engineering background), I liken the homebrewing obsession to guys that ride motocross, buy guitars or drums, mountain bikers, kayakers, bass fishermen, harley riders and golfers.This is a Hobby,and like many other hobbies, it can get to be expensive (which is relative) or it can be done very inexpensively. most new brewers that have other hobbies, wont or cant commit the funds to have more than one (over the top) hobby at a time, with that said, priorities take over and you spend what its worth to you to play at whatever level you are comfortable.
when I started almost 13 years ago, I had a stainless pot from Kmart and one used 5 gallon carboy. today, after spending well over $15,000 on homebrewing equipment and ingredients, I consider it a good investment. all my equipment still works just like it did when it was new, and with care, should easily outlive me. how many golf clubs, Harleys or bass boats make it that far?
I have had to (or simply decided to) explain this to my friends like this (we all have Supermoto Motorcycles or dirtbikes/atv's):
1. How much does a new Atv, dirt bike or Jet Ski cost? between $5,000 and $10,000 dollars is the usual response!
2. How often do you get to use it? 8 or 10 weekends a year is the average for my friends!
3. How much do you spend on maintainence, upkeep and insurance every year? usually between $500 and $1,000 per year are common answers.
4. How much will your bike/atv/jetski be worth in 5 years? less than half its original purchase price is the norm.
the Harley guys and Bass boat owners are on the extreme end of the scale, they spend more for their stuff for less return than most. not in all cases, but most!

Basically, spend what your comfortable with and forget the people that tell you its a waste of money, especially if they have a motorcycle or boat at home and even more so if they have more than one of them.
This is a Hobby, so enjoy it the best way you can!

I brew in a bag and love it. I used to use a cooler mash tun with a cpvc manifold. Now, I use a 15 gallon pot with a fryer basket and a nylon bag. That's it. In my opinion, there's no advantage to using the cooler unless you really enjoy cleaning it after you're done.

So, with BIAB there is no vorlaufing, etc? Everyone says you can still get clear beer, but how much crud makes it through to the boil kettle. My concern would be that I have a plate chiller-- is it going to get clogged with brew in a bag methodology, or do I really need to use a method that lets me vorlauf and get the wort crystal clear?

Klaus

kshuler said:

So, with BIAB there is no vorlaufing, etc? Everyone says you can still get clear beer, but how much crud makes it through to the boil kettle.

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There's no "makes it through to the boil kettle"; the mash tun is the boil kettle. Not much crud remains when the grain is removed, though; the mesh on the bag is very fine (the voile commonly used has finer mesh than the paint strainer bags people commonly use as hop bags).

My concern would be that I have a plate chiller-- is it going to get clogged with brew in a bag methodology, or do I really need to use a method that lets me vorlauf and get the wort crystal clear?

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I'd imagine that with a decent whirlpool you wouldn't notice much of a difference.

BIAB is faster and easier, but it's not a cureall: for very large grain bills (or batches > 5 gallons) it's difficult or impossible. For single infusions it's great, but for complicated mash schedules (e.g. steps or decoctions) you'll at least need a small second kettle to do them right. The kettle holds temp fine for an hour or so, but I do fire it briefly in 90 minute mashes and I'm not sure how it'd be for extended sour mashes.

I've switched to BIAB (with sparge) for about 80% of my brews, but I still bust out the cooler for some of those scenarios. But for that 80%, it's basically a single-batch-sparge brew except you're moving the grain instead of the water, saving a bunch of time, and cleaning less.

I agree, I cant see BIAB as a cure all, but with the proper boil, you should get a complete hot break and with decent whirlpool action and settling time, you should get a pretty clear wort to the fermenter.

I'm telling you man. Zap Pap!