Is 70% really that bad?

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Tuggy

Tuggy

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I've been working with my current set up to get the best efficiency. My best has been 76% and my worst has been 68%.

My typical mash step includes single infusion with 2 seperate batch sparges (due to the fact that I have a 5gallon mast tun).

Any recommandations to boost this a little or to keep it out of the 60's?

My very last brew (last night) was 70%. Which in the grand scheme of things is basically .3% alcohol content... Not a big deal.

The grain mill that I use is a general that the LHBS offers to it's customers. The brew master there says it's efficiency is estimated at 75%.

Do you think that it would be better to run the grain through the mill twice or would that break it up too much?
 
Is it really that bad? I say no, who cares.

IMO, it's more important to have a general idea of what kinda efficiency you're getting with your system (which, it sounds like you do) & account for that and shoot for consistent results, rather than just pursuing an arbitrary number.
 
70% isn't that bad.. if you get consistency that's what's most important. Could you do better with a finer crush? Yes, probably.. but how much extra grain per batch is that really, a lb or two?
 
Ditto. But, what temp are you sparging at? I heat my sparge water to 185F before adding to the MLT. I picked up almost 10% when I started doing that.
 
IMO, 70% or so when batch sparging is not bad at all, especially since it appears to be an honest number. Beware of exaggerated efficiency claims and don't let them bug you. I get about the same when I batch sparge, which is only rarely when making starter wort to can. You are doing just fine and chasing higher efficiency numbers isn't worth the trouble. Use a couple of more pounds of malt, or whatever it takes, and brew on. Consistency is the important thing and if you overshoot your target a little, you get more beer or a higher gravity beer. How bad can that be? IMO, there are way more important brewing things to focus on.
 
The finished product is what maters. With low efficiency you may end up oversparging and get astringency from tannins. If it tastes good to you it's good enough.

Batch sparging can hit efficiencies over 90% with a good crush, proper pH, good stiring and complete draining...honestly. ;)

Kia covered this better than anyone else.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency
 
Malticulous said:
Batch sparging can hit efficiencies over 90% with a good crush, proper pH, good stiring and complete draining.
Click to expand...

The only way I would be convinced of 90% efficiency for a batch sparge would be if I personally did the required measurements and calculations.
 
I got an 88%, a 75%, which both overshot the starting gravity for their styles with a single infusion mash and a 175-180 batch sparge (which I hold for 10 min before draining). Then I switched to a multistep mash with a protein rest as indicated by the recipe and manufacturer, and got 69%. it ended up being ok since with an estimated 75% it would have been out of style... Too high of OG. I get my calculations from BrewPal app. As long as it tastes good right? We live and learn. I will however switch back to my single infusion for subsequent beers that don't require a protein rest and see if I get in that 75+ range again.
 
I don't even put all my boil volume through the mash because I shoot for 85%. I can hit it 90% of the time. I do two equal runoffs and never go over 2qt/lb. I end up topping off the kettle for long boils and small grain bills.

When I do hit over 90% I hunt for lab analysis data sheets and seldom have been able to find them. I end up adjusting extract numbers to get it closer to my average. It's nice to keep using the same ingredients to I have a good feel for what I get out of it in the mash.
 
The problem with "is xx% efficiency" good is that there are so many different forms of "efficiency"

I really like this graphic that Kai put together:

Kai_efficiency.jpg


So, while many assume when you say "efficiency" you mean "into the fermenter efficiency" it does help to state that as some people don't mean that. Heck, I know people that consider their post-boil gravity and volume as their "efficiency" even though they have wort loss via their CFC....
 
It's best to measure it once you have all the runnings into the kettle. That's mash efficiency. Brewhouse efficiency is what ever you want to call it. From 10 lbs of grain I can get 53 6% ABV 12oz bottles of beer. That's my BHE.
 
If it's a consistent 70% I wouldn't let it get to me at all. My typical batches are between 70 and 78, with a few dropping below. I really don't pay attention (half the time I don't even bother figuring it out) unless the beer tastes off. As long as the finished product is delicious thats all I'm concerned about.
 
Not bad at all. Some people shoot for a lower efficiency (70-75%) claiming they notice better quality in finished product when brewed with lower efficiency.
 
AZ_IPA said:
The problem with "is xx% efficiency" good is that there are so many different forms of "efficiency"

I really like this graphic that Kai put together:

Kai_efficiency.jpg


So, while many assume when you say "efficiency" you mean "into the fermenter efficiency" it does help to state that as some people don't mean that. Heck, I know people that consider their post-boil gravity and volume as their "efficiency" even though they have wort loss via their CFC....
Click to expand...

damn that's sexy. can i get a hi res graphic?
 
Be happy with your 70%...I've been getting 60-65% pretty consistently, at least for my mash efficiency. I don't really care, I mean I'd like to get it higher, but as long as I know what I'm shooting for, it doesn't matter.
 
70% efficiency is definitely not bad...if you are hitting it consistently.

To me, the first order of business, where efficiency is concerned, is achieving consistency. Once you are able to achieve consistent efficiency you have much more control over the final product. Predictability is also a critical step in the process of perfecting your favorite recipes. Once you have reached this point, you can then move onto tweaking your process for efficiency gains that will eventually lower your waste and improve your cost. Oh, and then you can enter the "my efficiency is better than your efficiency" pi$$ing contest. Though all that really matters is......does it taste good?
 
Yes I'm consistantly 68 - 72. Which is ok. And many of the brews have come out great (minus a couple of my experiments).

I guess in the grand scheme of things it really is only the difference of .5lbs of grain to adjust the difference.

I guess everyone just makes such a huge deal about it, that I feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Also to answer a couple questions... My last brew was a medium body 60% 2 row - 40% wheat. The mash temp was 168 (154 hold temp) for 60 min. I had two batch sparges at 169.

Do you think that if I raise it to 185 that will make a difference? I've even tried to let the sparge sit for 10min.. I also tried my own version of a fly sparge, all with the same outcome of 68-72.
 
And another question that I saw was efficiency from mash to kettle (pre-boil)

My mash reading was 1.030 at 150 degrees. When I converted that based on the temp, it was right at 1.049. Finshed after boil at 1.052.
 
Tuggy said:
Do you think that if I raise it to 185 that will make a difference? I've even tried to let the sparge sit for 10min.
Click to expand...

No, sparge temp has virtually no effect on efficiency for batch sparging. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/cold-water-sparge-110856/

If you're doing a single batch sparge, spitting it into a double batch sparge will likely give you a slight increase. As others have said, 70% is pretty good, and consistency is way more important than efficiency at the homebrew level.
 
Did you ever notice that almost all recipes use 70% efficiency? When was the last time you saw a recipe that was based on anything higher then 75%....
 
70% is just fine if you don't mind paying a very small amount more for having to use more grain. I got 83% efficiency (mash efficiency) the first time I brewed AG. I've always overshot my OG so I ended up having to set Beersmith to 80%.

If you want more efficiency, try using a different crush (maybe order from the reputable vendor on this site) or double crush.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. If you really want to improve though, see if crushing finer will do the trick. (and depending on your MLT design, a finer crush may cause some batches to get stuck!)

And make sure you are ACCURATE in measuring both grain and water, as a small amount of difference will show up in your calculations.
 
Consistency is waaaay more important that actual efficiency. If you know what you get you can take any recipe and hit the numbers. Dont worry about it being "lower" than other people.

If you do want to increase it though, I would suggest you get your own mill. Not only will your efficiency go up (mine jumped 10% right away) but you'll save money on buying grain in bulk. It was the second best piece of brewing equipment I've bought (the first is my ferm fridge/temp controller). Good luck
 
Homercidal said:
70% is just fine if you don't mind paying a very small amount more for having to use more grain. I got 83% efficiency (mash efficiency) the first time I brewed AG. I've always overshot my OG so I ended up having to set Beersmith to 80%.

If you want more efficiency, try using a different crush (maybe order from the reputable vendor on this site) or double crush.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. If you really want to improve though, see if crushing finer will do the trick. (and depending on your MLT design, a finer crush may cause some batches to get stuck!)

And make sure you are ACCURATE in measuring both grain and water, as a small amount of difference will show up in your calculations.
Click to expand...

+1 Spot on IMO. Accurate measurements are a must. Seemingly trivial errors can skew the results more than you might think. I try to be conservative when putting together a recipe and if I overshoot the gravity some, it's very easy to deal with. I tend to lean toward the camp that believes that the wort extracted at a lower efficiency is of higher quality, but it's mostly just a gut feeling and seems to make sense.
 
I tend to get around 60% for no sparge big beers. I've made a few good second runnings beers from them. They tend to seem less malty than if I had made nearly the same beer from a single mash. Astringency has been a problem with some too. I just had to learn when to stop. As long as I don't put over 4 quarts per pound through the mash and keep the pH under 5.6 even the second runnings are good.

My understanding is the the big breweries get within 2-3% of laboratory extract.

I like Kia's conversion efficiency test. Form the first runnings and water/grain ratio you know how well the mashed worked. If your getting low conversion then even getting under 70% efficiency is pulling wort of poor quality.
 
Catt22 said:
+1 Spot on IMO. Accurate measurements are a must. Seemingly trivial errors can skew the results more than you might think.
Click to expand...

Yes. Especially taking into account some things such as water volume differences at different temperatures and how that affects your volume measurements, which obviously affect your gravity reading.
 
FWIW I was getting consistent 70-75% until I started to use multi-step infusion mashing techniques. I achieve about 93-97% conversion efficiency and 80% brew house overall.
 
Nope you are doing fine. Keep up the consistency and you will always know what to shoot for in the future.

Me, I have gone from 65% to 85% and it really sucks not know what you range your next batch will be.
 
My first few batches I was getting 80% with a double batch sparge. I decided a single batch sparge was more to my liking so now get between 70-76% depending on where I have my grain crushed. I don't really care where it falls, I care that it's predictable and consistent. 70% is fine by me.
 
Yeah. Consistency and predictability are the most important. Some people sweat numbers. I was happy at 70ish but I get 80 every time now and am still happy.

Just do the same exact thing every time, then once you establish a pattern, change one thing and see what happens.
 
arturo7 said:
A consistent 70% is far better than 80% one time and 90% the next.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Who really cares about a dollar or two worth of grain at the 5-10gal level... it's not like we're big breweries dealing with tons of grain, it's just a few pounds. Unless you're crazy about squeezing every last penny out of your brewing system, 70% is great.
 
BALLS.. Just did another brew last night. My goal OG was 1.054 (70%). Hit 1.060 (75%). The only thing that I did different was raise the mash temp from 152 to 158. Everything else was the same.

Guess I'm just trying to dial everything in..
 

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