modern vs. medieval ale

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harpwriter

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Hello,

In researching for a book, I found a thread here about brewing medieval ale. I'm wondering if anyone could give me an idea of how modern ale would taste after a lifetime of drinking only the medieval style.

Thank you!
 
And who responding to this thread would have any idea what a lifetime of drinking mediæval ale would be like? Even if we're generous and extend the Middle Ages to the 15th century, a person would have to be over 500 years old. Some things translat, and some don't. The first thing you'd need to do, to approximate an answer, is find someone who uses gruit, and not hops. The trouble with gruit as a mediæval adjunct is that it was some kind of hell-broth of herbs & etc. that varied from place to place. Some ingredients could actually be poisonous.
There's no reason to believe that our tastes would ever be compatible with those of that age. With no refrigeration, they ate & drank many things that would be considered rotten / spoiled in our age. Some of their tastes are incomprehensible. We use ketchup and mustard. In the Middle Ages, they used something called garum. Look it up and decide -whether or not we can understand the mind of the Middle Ages- if we can share their tastes.
 
One resource you might look to is Randy Mosher's "Tasting Beer". He goes a little into historic brewing.

One thing for sure, by our terms, it probably didn't taste good. It was probably low in alcohol, cloudy and pretty yeasty. More than likely, it was probably flat, unless they were lucky enough to have casks. It probably all was sour too. They didn't know yeast existed, much less about sanitation. Since there are reports of Porters being somewhat sour into the Industrial Revolution, you can bet Medieval brews were too.
 
Gruit was largely drunk on the continent. "Ale", in its original meaning -- and it's gone through several, most recently being haphazardly applied to any top-fermented grain beverage -- was preferred in Britain, and was made without hops and usually without any herbs. So it would have likely been quite sweet by modern standards, and probably at least somewhat sour or horsey from wild yeast. "Beer", that being brewed with hops, didn't arrive in England probably until the 1400s, and only gradually took hold, with unhopped ale being enjoyed in rural areas at least into the 1600s. I would imagine that a medieval Englishman would have found modern beers to be unfamiliarly and unpleasantly bitter.
All of this of course only applies to Great Britain, and my knowledge of historical styles elsewhere is pretty lacking.
 
This just came to me when reading santosvega's post about sweetness. Attenuation rates were relatively low too. That, combined with not using hops would have made beer very sweet indeed.
 
In addition to the sweetness, medieval brews likely had very low carbonation. If a person in the middle ages was given a modern macro lager, like Budweiser, I imagine they would find it very bitter and painfully carbonated.
 
Don't forget that before coke was used to roast malt in the 1600s, it would have been kilned over wood, straw, manure, coal, etc.-- to some degree, most every beer was a smoked beer.

Okay, so I made up the bit about manure, but why not?
 
Don't forget that before coke was used to roast malt in the 1600s, it would have been kilned over wood, straw, manure, coal, etc.-- to some degree, most every beer was a smoked beer.

+1 on this. That's kinda what surprised me about the recipe for Poor Richard's Ale. I would've expected a bit of a smoked character to come out in a Colonial-style brew, since the early maltsters here in the Colonies didn't have access to the large malt plants that were common in England. I've been reading "Brewed in America" by Stanley Baron over the last month, and it has some very interesting information that led me to expect more smoked malt in "throwback" recipes.

Moral of the story: a murky, flat beverage tasting of herbs (not necessarily hops), smoked malt, and sourness.
 
+1 on this. That's kinda what surprised me about the recipe for Poor Richard's Ale. I would've expected a bit of a smoked character to come out in a Colonial-style brew, since the early maltsters here in the Colonies didn't have access to the large malt plants that were common in England. I've been reading "Brewed in America" by Stanley Baron over the last month, and it has some very interesting information that led me to expect more smoked malt in "throwback" recipes.

Moral of the story: a murky, flat beverage tasting of herbs (not necessarily hops), smoked malt, and sourness.

These are excellent insights. Since we've gone to speculating wholesale about this, I might as well chime in again, this time about consistency. Given what they were working with, mediæval beers must have been the most amazing crapshoot, and existed in almost unlimited variety. Any real ability to replicate the same beer from batch to batch would have been very difficult, if possible at all, and the next farmstead or village over would have been almost certain to have had a very different libation.
 
+1 on this. That's kinda what surprised me about the recipe for Poor Richard's Ale. I would've expected a bit of a smoked character to come out in a Colonial-style brew, since the early maltsters here in the Colonies didn't have access to the large malt plants that were common in England. I've been reading "Brewed in America" by Stanley Baron over the last month, and it has some very interesting information that led me to expect more smoked malt in "throwback" recipes.

Moral of the story: a murky, flat beverage tasting of herbs (not necessarily hops), smoked malt, and sourness.
Awesome post. I am learning so much here. :off:
 
I can imagine that the brewers of old reused barrels for each batch, perhaps the dregs in the bottom of the barrel lead to dominant yeast strains for that alehouse, so the beer for that town may have been consistant yet still unique for the location. I have read that early brewers had a family mash paddle that was passed down through generations, this paddle had the yeast from brewing on it, it inoculated the wort by its use, also a sort of dominant strain unique to that paddle.
 
I have read that early brewers had a family mash paddle that was passed down through generations, this paddle had the yeast from brewing on it, it inoculated the wort by its use, also a sort of dominant strain unique to that paddle.

I also read this in "Radical Brewing" by Randy Mosher. The Viking women used to very tightly guard their stirring paddles, kinda like a family secret because it contained the yeast. I think that he even throws out a couple of theoretical old-school recipes, and even put together a couple and tried them.
 
Thank you for all your help and speculation. The more I read about medieval brewing, it does seem it would always be an adventure trying a new batch!
 
I don't think the idea that beer quality was all over the map is quite
right. I'm sure there were inconsistencies, but bars have been in
existence for a very long time, and nobody will be in business long
unless they can serve a reasonably consistent product, given that
the presence of competition. The art of making alcoholic beverages
was a trade like any other with its secrets and special knowledge handed
down the ages, including I would have to believe how to get beer to
ferment reliably. I also don't buy the idea that beer
must have been weak, because high alcohol drinks like wine and mead
had been made for many centuries prior to beer. Carbonation must
have been possible because casks have been around since about the
time of Christ. Chaucer has one of his characters say at one point
in the Canterbury tales "I'd rather have a barrell of ale than anything",
and that was about 1380, so barrells of ale would not have been a
new thing.
Jim:mug:
 
I believe I read somewhere that some of the english ales were a bit dark and strong, in order to get some preservative quality. With no hops, no refrigeration, high alcohol helped.

No hops, though -- that's gotta be the dark ages!:D

Oh, and I also don't buy the thought that the beer was inconsistent. It was a trade, there was commerce, there was competition, like today, for the best beer or best price.
 
Oh, and I also don't buy the thought that the beer was inconsistent. It was a trade, there was commerce, there was competition, like today, for the best beer or best price.

My thoughts too. It is not in man's nature to make life worse than it already is. If beer tasted like satan's urine, then there would be documentary evidence. Any historical references to wine, mead or beer sounds pretty darned favourable. Without a consistent method of brewing we would have heard about the foul stench of satan's urine in the Magna Carta or The Canterbury Tales.
 
I dunno. The "consistency" we are all acustomed to is a relatively modern phenomenon.
A Big Mac is a Big Mac the world around is due to a lot of science and trial and error.
Prior to the age of chains and franchises, a consistent product simply meant it was roughly the same from one iteration to the next.
I'd be willing to bet, if you were a peasant in a midieval alehouse, and your first flaggon was from one cask, and your next was from another, you'd be able to tell the difference.
But, since I'm slightly less than 500 years old, I can only speculate.
 
I think if you handed someone from the middle ages a modern beer you would be tried as a witch or a sorcerer. But that wouldn't matter, because you could just get back into your time machine and escape.
 
I dunno. The "consistency" we are all acustomed to is a relatively modern phenomenon.
A Big Mac is a Big Mac the world around is due to a lot of science and trial and error.
Prior to the age of chains and franchises, a consistent product simply meant it was roughly the same from one iteration to the next.
I'd be willing to bet, if you were a peasant in a midieval alehouse, and your first flaggon was from one cask, and your next was from another, you'd be able to tell the difference.
But, since I'm slightly less than 500 years old, I can only speculate.

Heck, i didn't mean consistency to the point of the homogenization found in modern fast food restaurants! If beer in the middle ages were as consistently foul as McDonald's is in modern times then there would most definitely be historic documentation telling us to keep the hell away from beer!
 
If you are curious about the culinary traditions of the dark ages I recommend Le Menagier de Paris which contains 400 something recipes from the "dark ages". I've been meaning to get it for a long time. From what I've gleaned from the middle french text (which can be found for free online), their cooking didn't differ that much from out own. Standard spices, breads, meats.

I would think that if you are talking about hopped beers, those were probably not too much different either. I have no data to back this up, but if our taste buds haven't changed so radically, could our preferences in beer have changed that much?

I would think that despite not knowing about the causes behind beer infections, souring, and the like, smart brewers would have still figured out ways to minimize the potential of spoiled beer based on trial and error. Don't forget that good middle age brewers probably spent a lifetime of apprentice-ship learning the trade. They didnt' wake up one day and decide, "hey I guess I'll try my hand at homebrewing". These are just conjectures, of course.
 
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I dunno. The "consistency" we are all acustomed to is a relatively modern phenomenon.

A more precise consistency is a relatively modern phenomenon. At least we
think so.

A Big Mac is a Big Mac the world around is due to a lot of science and trial and error.
Prior to the age of chains and franchises, a consistent product simply meant it was roughly the same from one iteration to the next.
I'd be willing to bet, if you were a peasant in a midieval alehouse, and your first flaggon was from one cask, and your next was from another, you'd be able to tell the difference.
But, since I'm slightly less than 500 years old, I can only speculate.

I would think an ale from one house or another could be different,
even vastly different, but why would an ale from the same brewhouse
but different cask be so different? Wouldn't they be using the same
ingredients, brewed by the same person, and pitched with yeast from
a previous batch made by the same person? I suppose that there
are minor differences in professionally brewed cask conditioned ales
even today, due to temperature differences during fermentation
and conditioning perhaps. I think the biggest difference might have
been the frequency of totally spoiled batches (ropes, etc.), and maybe
some tapsters might have tried to get away with selling it, but the
existence of Lambic proves that even soured beers have a market,
so the old brewers could probably get away with a brett infection for example, just smack a different label on the cask.
Jim:mug:
 
I agree that each alehouse would have to have a relatively consistent product. However, considering variations in available grain, and inconsistencies of barley crop yields, they probably varied their gravities quite a bit.

I agree that the beers would have to be smokey and infected. It sounds gross, but when you consider the alternative drinks, it was probably delicious by comparison. It was also much safer.

I don't think we can draw much of a conclusion on alcoholic strength, even though we have data in the form of recipes, it would be hard to know the level of attenuation.
 
These are excellent insights. Since we've gone to speculating wholesale about this, I might as well chime in again, this time about consistency. Given what they were working with, mediæval beers must have been the most amazing crapshoot, and existed in almost unlimited variety. Any real ability to replicate the same beer from batch to batch would have been very difficult, if possible at all, and the next farmstead or village over would have been almost certain to have had a very different libation.

I whole-heartedly disagree with your theory on consistency. Medieval Europeans weren't brainless zombies. I can assure you that, while the didn't know what was happening on the microbial level, they could consistently reproduce recipes. If they didn't, then they couldn't maintain a business just like today. Every medieval brewer knew they could manipulate flavors just as modern brewers do.

I'm certain that if a medieval armorer could make a breastplate with a specific thickness within 1,000th of an inch, and architects could design and build Notre Dame and Chatres chathedrals, then a brewer could ascertain that orchard "A" produces this kind of beer best consistently, or orchard "B" produces this kind of cider best consistently.
 
Even in medieval times, there was accurate measure of weight and volume, just not the measure we use. While they may not have had a hydrometer, they could have used almost any floating object (some medieval recipes say to make a solution "strong enough an egg will float in it" which is reasonable accurate)

The beer from one master brewer would have been very consistent--he would have years of training as an apprentice, and know the "secret knowledge" of his trade, including how to adjust the amount of ingredients for quality. He would be using the same yeast all the time, and his entire establishment would be heavily "contaminated" by this yeast, essentially keeping out all the other "bad bugs".

t
 
We need a nutritional anthropologist...

...waiting...

What, Deb didn't show up? It works for Alton Brown all the time!
 
I think the whole smokey character to be over way over estimated.

Perhaps a little in the background, but it is actually rather difficult to make smoked malt. You have to pretty much put the malt in a smoker made for that purpose and smoke the sh** out of it. A kiln is not a smoker.
 
George Washington's recipe:
To Make Small Beer:
Take a large siffer full of bran hops to your taste-boil these 3 hours. Then strain our 30 gall[o]n into a cooler put in 3 gall[o]n molasses while the beer is scalding hot or rather draw the molasses into the cooler. Strain the beer on it while boiling hot, let this stand till it is little more than blood warm. Then put in a quart of ye[a]st if the weather is very cold cover it over with a blank[et] let it work in the cask-Leave the bung open till it is almost done working-Bottle it that day week it was brewed."

Now, this was long after the medieval period, but long before any
understanding of yeast and other microbes. Yet Washington knew he
could get his hands on a quart of yeast. So there must have been
reproducible methods for getting it, they weren't just standing around
waiting for some lucky microbe to make their beer.
Jim:mug:
 
I use gruit herbs as additives to my Brewhouse kits. I'm still experimenting, but I really like the results so far. The herbs (myrica gale, yarrow, labrador tea) are stimulants, as opposed to hops which are soporific. Thus gruit is great for parties.
 
I think the whole smokey character to be over way over estimated.

Perhaps a little in the background, but it is actually rather difficult to make smoked malt. You have to pretty much put the malt in a smoker made for that purpose and smoke the sh** out of it. A kiln is not a smoker.

After a little more research I think you're right. Here's an interesting link from someone in the SCA trying to recreate a medieval beer. He's quoted a primary source (from 1503) regarding the malting process.

they carry it to the kiln covered with haircloth, where they give it gentle heats (after they speard it very thin abroad) till it be dry, an din the meanwhile they turn it often that it be uniformly dried. For the more it be dried (yet must it be done with soft fire), the sweeter and better the malt is and the longer it will continue.

So they used gentle heat to dry the malt. I'm guessing it wasn't very smoked at all.

Also, it seems from other research I did that ale was served very green in the Middle Ages, which means it probably didn't have time to sour.

At Elmley Castle (Worcestershire) in 1446, for example, alebrewers were proscribed from selling ale more than four days old.

I now think both the sourness and smokiness were over estimated.
 
I would think that if you are talking about hopped beers, those were probably not too much different either. I have no data to back this up, but if our taste buds haven't changed so radically, could our preferences in beer have changed that much?

Three letters B M C.
 
Three letters B M C.

I wonder if BMC came first, and then people decided they desired it (based on price and marketing, and eventually self-imposed, self-taught "preference"), or if people's desire for BMC came first, and then the BMC itself. (I would say the first is truer.)

Honestly, I think those beers are entirely a construct of cheap corn, industrial automation, and shareholder driven profiteering. Removing the first two, and probably the third as well, I have a hard time imagining they drank anything like it 500 years ago. They are notoriously hard to clone right? I would imagine they would have been unlikely to spend so much time and labor trying to create something that tasted so much like pilsner + urine.
 
I wonder if BMC came first, and then people decided they desired it (based on price and marketing, and eventually self-imposed, self-taught "preference"), or if people's desire for BMC came first, and then the BMC itself. (I would say the first is truer.)

Honestly, I think those beers are entirely a construct of cheap corn, industrial automation, and shareholder driven profiteering. Removing the first two, and probably the third as well, I have a hard time imagining they drank anything like it 500 years ago. They are notoriously hard to clone right? I would imagine they would have been unlikely to spend so much time and labor trying to create something that tasted so much like pilsner + urine.

Actually Maureen Ogle in her book Ambitious Brew: The Story of America Beer cleared up a lot of those "beer myths" that we beer snobs used to harbor to "keep us warm" and to somehow make us think that we're better than those who drink Bud products.....


It covers everything from the migration of the Buschs, the Miller's, etc fro Germany until the 80's THEN it goes into a good deal about the history of CRAFT BREWING...so it's a pretty good into to beer history and culture as a whole.

5194HaN2BoL._SL500_.jpg


Maybe you should learn a little of the truth, instead of just bud bashing, that old song and dance.

America like most of the world had quite an extensive array of beers available prior to the German Invasion of brewer's which later introduced the light lager. They pretty much had the "brewing culture" of all the countries that people immigrated from...Most English beer styles..you know Porters, Stouts, Partigyles, stuff like that. As well as mostly heavy German Styles of beer. Not to mention people from Scotland, Ireland, Russia and other places where beer was drank.

Remember up until then, beer was food.

But in the prosperous new world, people could actually eat meat with nearly every meal if they wanted, so their dietary needs change. They didn't WANT filling beers anymore.

Beer sales started to slip....

In fact the whole history of the light lager is the American populace's (not the brewer's) desire to have a lighter beer to drink, which forced the German brewers to look at adding adjuncts like corn and rice...not as the popular homebrewer's myth has been to make money by peddling and "inferior commercial product" by adding adjuncts, but in order to come up with a style of beer that the American people wanted.

Not the other way around.

Maureen Ogle proved that it actually made the cost of a bottle of Budweiser cost around 17.00/bottle in today's dollars.

When AH released Budweiser with it's corn and rice adjuncts in the 1860's it was the most expensive beer out there; a single bottle retailed for $1.00 (what would equal in today's Dollars for $17.00) this was quite difference when a schooner of beer usually cost a nickel.

The American populace ate it up!


It wasn't done to save money, it was done because heavy beers (both english style Ales and the heavier Bavarian malty beers) were not being drunk by American consumers any more. Beer initally was seen around the world as food (some even called it liquid bread), but since America, even in the 1800's was a prosperous nation compared to the rest of the world, and americans ate meat with nearly every meal, heavy beers had fallen out of favor...

And American Barley just made for heavy, hazy beer

Bush and other German Brewers started looking at other styles of Beers, and came upon Karl Balling and Anton Schwartz's work at the Prague Polytechnic Institute with the Brewers in Bohemia who when faced with a grain shortage started using adjuncts, which produced the pils which was light, sparkly and fruity tasting...just the thing for American tastebuds.

So the brewers brought Schwartz to America where he went to work for American Brewer Magazine writing articles and technical monographs, teaching American brewers how to use Rice and Corn...

The sad moral of the story is....The big evil corporate brewers did NOT foist tasteless adjunct laced fizzy water on us, like the popular mythology all of us beersnobs like to take to bed with us to feel all warm and elitist....it was done because our American ancestors wanted it.

Listen to this from Basic Brewing;

November 30, 2006 - Ambitious Brew Part One
We learn about the history of beer in the USA from Maureen Ogle, author of "Ambitious Brew - The Story of American Beer." Part one takes us from the Pilgrims to Prohibition.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr11-30-06.mp3

December 7, 2006 - Ambitious Brew Part Two
We continue our discussion about the history of beer in the USA with Maureen Ogle, author of "Ambitious Brew - The Story of American Beer." Part two takes us from Prohibition to the present day.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr12-07-06.mp3

The truth is a little different than the snobby lie that make us feel more "elite" than the masses, eh? ;)

It's alway easier to swallow a good delusion than to accept a painful truth. For example I constantly tell myself that those "19 year old bisexual strippers" that send me messages on myspace actually did read my profile and really do think my 45 year old sorry ass is "hawt." I never write back, (I wouldn't want to deprive them of their fantasies) but simply bask in the glory of my uber-studliness...It keeps me warm at night while I sleep in my bed...alone. :D
 
Sure, there was competition, but if no one had consistently good beer, there isn't anything to compete on here.
 

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