Critique my Amarillo Pale Ale Recipe...

Before I brew this, please lend your thoughts. Never have brewed an Ale with all amarillo, but I had one at the local micro a few weeks back and it was pretty good. It tasted like an All-Amarillo version of an SNPA. Althought SNPA isn't bitter to me at all, maybe the Amarillo is just a little more potent, but it was slightly more bitter than the SNPA brewed with Pearle and Cascade. So, I dropped the IBU's a bit from a 35-45 range that an SNPA would be. Thoughts? Should I go a little higher on the IBU? This will be for my enjoyment, but also hoping its enjoyed by non-craft-connoisseur type as well. Also, thoughts on a yeast? I'm thinking just a pretty well flocculating, "clean" strain such as S-05 or Nottingham. I like Dry-yeast use unless there is a better strain for the style...

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Amarillo Pale Ale - Grain or Extract (See Notes)
Brewer: Roaring Bull Brewing Co.
Style: American Pale Ale

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 5.72 gal
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 7.5 SRM
Estimated IBU: 28.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75%
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.50 lb American Two-Row (7.0 SRM) Grain 78.6 %
0.75 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 10.7 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 10.7 %
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (60 min) Hops 15.5 IBU
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (30 min) Hops 6.0 IBU
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (6 min) Hops 3.6 IBU
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (3 min) Hops 1.9 IBU
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50%] (1 min) Hops 0.3 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle American Ale (#S-05) or Nottingham Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: None
Total Grain Weight: 9.00 lb
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Notes:
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May brew as extract also. If using DME, I'd use 5.5lb. Light, X-Light, or in combination with "Pilsen" Dme if available at your LHBS.

Remember this is a full boil so if doing partial, you'll need to adjust (up) your hops for utilization.

I *love* Amarillo, and find it to lend a very smooth bitterness despite its pretty high AA%. Looks like a nice, clean, simple recipe. Personally, I like including a character malt like Munich or Vienna to this kind of pale ale, just to "flesh out" the background a bit, give it a bit more balance, but that's wholly optional.

I might be inclined to either ramp up that 1-minute addition, or do a decent-sized dryhop; this hop is BEGGING for as much aroma as you can get.

Awesome bird... Thanks for the input. I have to see if I have some Munich or Vienna on hand. I have everything for the recipe as listed, so if I'm out of Munich, I may just need to pass on the other malt - but I know what you are saying.

I also think its a good idea to ramp up the 1 minute hopping... Not sure how much Amarillo I have on hand, but I think I have at least 3 oz. left. I could add an extra oz. at one minute. If not, do you think Cascade is an acceptable substitute? Maybe I could do some of my bittering with Cascade and use some of the Amarillo to the middle/end also...

Cascade and Amarillo are WONDERFUL together. Centennial's nice, too. Or, just use anything clean for the bittering addition and showcase the Amarillo from 15 minutes in.

Bird - took your critique into consideration, as well as what I have on hand (which is only 2oz of Amarillo unfortunately and no Munich/Vienna) and here is version 2. Used some 6.9% Cascades I have on hand for bittering - Amarillo "showcased" from 15 minutes and in... Also upped the Dextrine and Crystal since I have no other specialty grains (other than Victory which I didn't think fit myself - 25SRM?)

Hopefully this works better? I think it does!

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Amarillo Pale Ale - Extract or AG Full Boil - See Notes
Brewer: Roaring Bull Brewery
Style: American Pale Ale

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 5.72 gal
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 7.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 30.8 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75%
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
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Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.50 lb American Two-Row (7.0 SRM) Dry Extract 40.0 %
1.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 13.3 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 13.3 %
0.75 oz Cascade [6.90%] (60 min) Hops 18.8 IBU
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.40%] (15 min) Hops 7.6 IBU
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.40%] (5 min) Hops 3.0 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.40%] (1 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
1 Pkgs Nottingham Yeast (Lallemand #-) Yeast-Ale

Notes:
------
To brew extract replace the two-row grain with 5.5lb DME - I would use some combination of Light, X-Light, and Pilsen DME. If doing partial boil, adjust hops (up) for utilizations.

Man that's an awful lot of Crystal/Caramel! Gonna make a sweet beer. Try to keep it less that a pound to dry it out a little. I see you're out of Munich and Vienna but how 'bout Victory or even a little wheat?

What temp are you planning to mash at?

Yeah, if you mash higher, you don't really need the carapils. If you're using it for head retention, you can always sub in a little wheat malt.

I personally wouldn't worry about a pound of 10L Crystal. If you're using it for the color aspect, you can always use less of a higher Lovibond.

Thanks for all the input... I plan on making the grain 7.5lb base, .5lb Victory, .75lb Crystal, .5lb Dextrine I believe... Plan on mashing low 150s? Not sure as this will be my first AG beer in my newly converted Rubbermaid Mash-tun...

I have some X-Light and Pilsen DME around in case it goes awry and I miss target OG terribly or something...

Brewday set for tomorrow... I'll let y'all know how this turns out!

Good luck man. For me, I would target 150 for the mash. Since is is your firat AG, that would allow for some degree of temp swing.

Ryan - I put 151 in as my target temp in Beersmith and it calculated strike water of around ~162.5, which is what I'm going to go with... (of course I won't be that exact but I should be able to get darn close)

We'll see how this turns out.

Is there any problem with mashing the night before and doing the boil the next morning? I'm thinking about mashing late-night tonight and cutting back on some time on Saturday... Or will nasties develop in the wort if I let it sit in the covered kettle until morning?

Here's the final recipe as well (unless I decide to make v5 at the last minute... haha)

Estimated OG: 1.043 SG
Estimated Color: 6.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 29.9 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.5 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 8.8 %
0.75 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 8.8 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5.9 %
0.66 oz Cascade [6.90%] (60 min) Hops 17.6 IBU
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [8.40%] (15 min) Hops 4.0 IBU
0.25 oz Amarillo Gold [8.40%] (10 min) Hops 2.9 IBU
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.40%] (5 min) Hops 3.2 IBU
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.40%] (2 min) Hops 1.4 IBU
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.40%] (1 min) Hops 0.7 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle American Ale (DCL Yeast #S-05) or Nottingham Yeast-Ale

DryHop 1.00 oz of Amarillo Gold (8.40%) - 1 Week Secondary

SilkkyBrew said:

Ryan - I put 151 in as my target temp in Beersmith and it calculated strike water of around ~162.5, which is what I'm going to go with... (of course I won't be that exact but I should be able to get darn close)

We'll see how this turns out.

Is there any problem with mashing the night before and doing the boil the next morning? I'm thinking about mashing late-night tonight and cutting back on some time on Saturday... Or will nasties develop in the wort if I let it sit in the covered kettle until morning?

Click to expand...

It's possible, depending on how well your mash tun holds heat (not many critters survive above 140° or so). The other thing that will happen is that your wort will be a lot more fermentable doing that long a mash, so I wouldn't do it.

The 161°-162° sounds right for your strike water, if you preheat your mash tun. Pour some near-boiling water in it a few minutes ahead of time, swirl it around a bit, let it sit and then dump it. You CAN simply increase your strike water a few extra degrees to account for that initial heat loss as the tun gets up to temp, but I find preheating a lot easier.

When you add the grain, add some of the water first, then grain, then stir it up before repeating. That'll help get everything all evenly mixed.

The other thing I do is to make sure I have some boiling water and some cold water ready to make any adjustments. Once you get your system down, you shouldn't need those - but it's a real handy backup. I mash in the kitchen, so I just put the teakettle on and have cold water available in the fridge. If you DO miss - if it's just a couple degrees, leave it, if it's enough where you have to make an adjustment, do so slowly (it's easy to add too much hot or cold, then have to go back the other way).

GOOD LUCK! Clean up as you go, and it won't be that long a process. Take pictures and keep us updated!

That looks really good! I brew an all-Amarillo IPA that's been a big hit in the past. It's in my recipe link. +1 on using some 'rillos for dry-hopping! Strongly suggest it!

Thanks for the tips bird. I plan on mashing in the kitchen as well and doing my boil outside as normal... My stove can easily get water to 170, it just has trouble with the last 40ish degrees before boil. Haha...

I'll try to take pics, but no promises as thats just one more thing for me to worry about... I need to do SOMETHING during the mash sitting there though I suppose!

Bird gave you the best advise. Do yourself a favor and do not get over excited with this, even though it is your first AG. You are going to realize 3 things tomorrow eveing:

1- AG is not as hard as you thought
2- You are going to save money on your brews
3- You are going to want to bre more... Not sure why, but you just do.

Good luck man.

SilkkyBrew said:

Thanks for the tips bird. I plan on mashing in the kitchen as well and doing my boil outside as normal... My stove can easily get water to 170, it just has trouble with the last 40ish degrees before boil. Haha...

I'll try to take pics, but no promises as thats just one more thing for me to worry about... I need to do SOMETHING during the mash sitting there though I suppose!

Click to expand...

I suggest putting that new kegerator through a rigorous pint pulling test while you're waiting on your mash.

I try to hit 152 on my APA. I've done it higher and lower and while I don't mind it being a bit more full bodied, it totally changed the beer when I mashed it at 148. 152-154 results in a solid medium-bodied beer for me everytime.

ohiobrewtus said:

I suggest putting that new kegerator through a rigorous pint pulling test while you're waiting on your mash.

I try to hit 152 on my APA. I've done it higher and lower and while I don't mind it being a bit more full bodied, it totally changed the beer when I mashed it at 148. 152-154 results in a solid medium-bodied beer for me everytime.

Click to expand...

Forgive me (I've read through Palmers book once but need to again), but what would be the impact of mashing as low as 148? I'm assuming its worse from your language (watery?)... Maybe I'll aim for a mash temp of 152-153 with 164-165 strike water. This way if I miss low its not terrible?!

Lower = more fermentable/lower FG.

I personally think 151° is a decent target for this style; it should be drinkable, but not TOO light. Anywhere from 151°-154°, I would think, would work.

Looks good. I also Love Amarillo. The sad thing is, once you brew this and love it, you won't be able to easily brew it again. Due to he shortages. Man, If someone could snag some Amarillo rhizomes to sell he would be very wealthy I think!

My APA features Amarillo and Cascade and centennial and I love it! I mash a bit higher (still working that out) but I use only a 1/2 # of crystal (carared) so it is not too sweet. I think with all the crystal you have and with a lower mash temp like you are planning it should be fine.

Good luck. Hope it isn't TOO delicious.

the_bird said:

Lower = more fermentable/lower FG.

I personally think 151° is a decent target for this style; it should be drinkable, but not TOO light. Anywhere from 151°-154°, I would think, would work.

Click to expand...

And the lower the FG, the thinner the mouthfeel. Anything below 150° gives my mouth the perception of BMC, but that's probably just me.

ohiobrewtus said:

And the lower the FG, the thinner the mouthfeel. Anything below 150° gives my mouth the perception of BMC, but that's probably just me.

Click to expand...

That's also going to depend on the recipe. For something like this, I would skew a little on the higher side. For something with a lot of crystal, or just a lot of malt generally, you sometimes want to mash really low to offset some of that. Depends on what you're looking for.

Thanks for all the help fellas - I can't wait to get into this... I will aim to mash at 151-152...

Here are some night-before pics. Just a couple... More to come tomorrow hopefully.

Ingredients for Amarillo Pale weighed out and bagged seperately, for now. I like to be organized and it should help on brew day:


Here's some of my equipment - namely a 5g Flyguy MLT with SS braid (reinforced with copper wire) and my pot I plan to heat strike and sparge water in:


The Turkey frier, boil pot, immersion chiller, etc. are to the left, but I didn't snap a pic of them yet. Tomorrow...

Well, i've officially mashed in and officially screwed up already (slightly)... I missed my target mash temp... low... ugh.

Not sure how. I preheated the tun w/ 170F water. I heated strike water to 162-164 range (my dial thermometer is not that accurate). I combined with the grain. Highest reading I can get in the tun is 146-148ish (again, the dial thermometer isn't accurate enough for my liking - note taken). And this is after I added an additional 2qt of 160F water...

Am I really screwed here? I'm still going through with it, but if the tun drops 5F in an hour, I'll be mashing in the lower 140s... What can I do (if anything) to salvage? How do you guys get this to be so accurate? If it will "be fine" mashing in the 140s, what can I expect? I see a more fermentable (less mouthfeel) wort above, but will it be real bad?

EDIT: My plan is to just let it sit at 146-148, but mash for a little longer. Then I plan to add my sparge water 170-175F and let that sit a little while too (15 min?) - maybe it will convert some of the sugars I missed converting by having the low mash temp? Not sure if this works or not, but since its so damn early and noone is here to help me in my struggles, this is what I've devised! Haha... We'll see what happens. If this turns out way to fermentable/dry (say FG of 1.005 or something) is there anything you can do to get back body? Maltodextrine/Lactose added when racking to secondary, etc. ?

If you're that low, you'll get conversion, you just might end up a bit too fermentable. After fermentation is done, if the FG is too low, you might want to add a bit of maltodextrine before bottling/kegging. That's my plan with the smoked hefe (which also mashed too low).

At least I can do something! I can add some malto before kegging if need be... How much are you planning on adding?

Anyway, pretty good news - 40 minutes into the boil now. I got a sample pre-boil that I cooled to 75-80ish degrees and tested with the hydro. Hit 1.040 gravity, when converted for temp, I guess thats 1.041-1.042. I was aiming for 1.043 with 70% efficiency. Not too bad I suppose - about 68% efficiency on my first AG brew with a 5g MLT with SS braid, not too bad I think... But can only get better.

The key is to remember the steps that you took. I've learned that pre-heating my mash tun with water that's a bit hotter than you used (closer to 200°) means that I need strike water that's about 2° hotter than BeerSmith proposes. It's all dependent on your system (size of cooler, etc.) and processes. There's a learning curve, but you'll get it.

Not sure why, but I keep watching this thread likt it is my first AG brew.

To echo Bird, ther are several factors that relate to hitting your temp. First is knowing your system, the second is how grain weight changes effects temp.

Good luck finishing up.

Well, it went fairly well.

Some pros and some cons, but you live and you learn... Took me about 6 hours or so beginning to end, I almost hit my OG, but mashed low as mentioned above. Had one small boilover and underestimated by boil off, so I ended up .5g short. First time using a wort chiller (always did partial boil/water bath before) and it leaked a little water into the pot before I could tighten the hose clamp. Also, I didn't do a very good job whirlpooling or something b/c my wort is quite cloudy... I don't think its due to grain husks, etc. bc I did vorleauf (?!) about a quart of each running and it looked just a little cloudy, but got clear quickly. Looked clearer going into the boil pot than going into the fermenter. Who knows...

Thoughts?

Ah well, there's always next time to improve!

You might be looking at cold break going into the fermented. Biggest improvement in using a wort chiller is getting a MUCH bigger cold break that you could ever dream of getting with ice baths/etc.

Congratulations!

It just hit me... I measured the gravity PRE-BOIL and was at 1.040... Wouldn't my gravity increase after 1.25g boiled off and the sugar remained behind?! I didn't take a gravity reading post-boil b/c for some reason I thought the pre-boil measurement was fine... Sooo... I'm thinking I had reallllly good efficiency if I was expected the POST-BOIL OG to be 1.043 and I hit 1.041 PRE-BOIL.

Anyway, onto my question - I guess I should dilute my wort a bit back to the OG that I wanted (1.043ish)... is it OK to just add 1/2-3/4g water to bring this down now? Would it be OK to wait until I dryhop this in a week to dilute it then?

Or am I crazy and the pre-boil land post-boil gravity would be the same?!

First of all, was your 1.040 pre-boil temperature adjusted?

Honestly, I would just leave it be at this point. If your *real* OG was 1.040 or 1.043 or 1.050, it'll be fine - that's still in the range of "balanced" giving the rest of the recipe.

the_bird said:

First of all, was your 1.040 pre-boil temperature adjusted?

Honestly, I would just leave it be at this point. If your *real* OG was 1.040 or 1.043 or 1.050, it'll be fine - that's still in the range of "balanced" giving the rest of the recipe.

Click to expand...

Pre-Boil OG was taken at 80F and I adjusted for the difference from 60F...

Preboil volume was about 5.75g, post boil about 4.5g... How much would my OG have shot up? To 1.050 or will I have a 1.060 PA if I don't dilute?

Well, if you boiled off about 20 - 25% of your volume (5.75 - 4.5 gallons, although you also would have lost some to any whole hops, to the sludge at the bottom of the kettle, and to dead space)... assuming on the high end, another 25% would bring 1.040 up to 1.050. I suspect you're a wee bit lower than that, since you probably only boiled off 15% - 20%, at most. But, that's just a broad estimate, although you're not going to be anywhere near 1.060 (where you might want to dilute).

Good job, BTW - better efficiency that I can manage most days!

Well, I went away for two days and came home and it appears this fermented out super fast... No more bubbles through the airlock and the krausen has dropped. I guess this could be normal for rehydrated Nottingham and if I mashed low I had a very fermentable beer...

Now to the problem. The beer looks like no extract brew I ever made... It is the right light, goldish color, but its... opaque at the same time. I mean, its CLOUDY. I know I mentioned it looked cloudy going in, but what did I do wrong? I know I didn't whirlpool well and most of the cold break is probably in there, but how do I clear this beer up? Or will it clear with time? It's only been 3 days, but its just weird looking...

Even though krasusen has dropped, it is probably still fermenting and it's still just the yeast in suspension. Just be patient, little grasshoppa'

True - it could just be yeast in suspension I suppose, but there is literally 0 bubbles per minute in the airlock. Unless the yeast are just 'cleaning up' and not creating anymore alcohol/co2... ?

I'm definitely waiting it out b/c it smells good through the airlock, just thought maybe I screwed something up with my first AG since my extract never looked quite like this, even when fully fermenting. I guess maybe I'm just not use to such a light beer?! I could never get my beer this light with extract...