Help me make a "violently hoppy" IIIPA

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BudzAndSudz

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So my friend is obsessed with Hoppy Beers. Says nothing on the market can get it done with him so he's commissioning a batch of homebrew to get the job done. He said initially that he wants to make the "bitter beer face" from those old Keystone Light commercials. And recently he's been saying "hoppiest ever", "violently hoppy" etc. I initially thought about just putting in 10oz of Warrior hops at 60 minutes and laughing while he tries to drink 5 gallons of that beer, but then I decided it's a nice challenge to make a beer like that taste drinkable, while still so agressively hoppy. Here's my recipe so far, primarily I'm concerned about the hops choice, quantities, and whether or not 4lbs of vienna is way too much for a beer like this (hoping to balance the IBU's with some malt, but is that too much?)

Looking for any and all feedback, from yeast, to grain bill, to hops etc. Don't be shy!

OG: 1.099
FG: 1.015
ABV: 11.08%
IBU (tinseth): 234.61
SRM (morey): 22.59
Mash @152 for 60 minutes
White Labs - Super High Gravity Ale Yeast WLP099


10lb 2-row
4lb Maris Otter
4lb Vienna
2lb Crystal 120L

3oz Chinook @60min.
2oz Simcoe @ 60min.
3oz Warrior @15min.
2oz Amarillo @10min.
2oz Citra Dry hop for 7 days.
 
5 gallon batch I presume. I'd reduce the 60 min addition to 1 to 2 oz Warrior then load all the other hops from 30 to 0 min, perhaps an oz every 8 mins or so. Hmm...
 
I dunno, he's specifically talking about bitterness and not just aroma/flavor. Interesting thought though....

Hmmm is right. This is a doozy for me. Also, yes 5.5 gallon batch (so there's some extra to be lost in the trub for my 5-gallon keg).
 
I'd definitely take out the 2 pounds of crystal 120l- or at least reduce it by at least 3/4. It has a burnt raisiny taste that will not complement an IIPA.

I'd consider reducing some of the grain and using corn sugar, so the finish is crisp and dry and not cloying and thick.

Like this:

12lb 2-row
4lb Vienna
1 pound corn sugar (or two pounds to hit your OG)
.5 pound carapils
.25 pound crystal 120L (if using) or .5 pound crystal 40L

And then for hopping, I'd go with a schedule with lots and lots of late hops that go together- like in Pliny the Elder's combo. I wouldn't use warrior at 15 minutes- it's a great bittering hop but doesn't give much hops flavor or aroma. He may say he wants bitterness, but if someone likes IPAs, it's about the hops and not just bitterness. A firmly bitter IPA without hops flavor and aroma would be weird, and not tasty.

Maybe something like this:
1-2 oz warrior @60min. (or 50 IBUs with this addition)
1 oz simcoe 15 minutes
1 oz citra 10 minutes
1 oz amarillo 10 minutes
1 oz citra 5 minutes
1 oz simcoe 1 minute
1 oz amarillo 1 minute
Dryhop with 1 ounce each of citra, amarillo, and simcoe
 
Yooper's revision looks really good. Might up the dry hop a little to get a ton of aroma out of it.
 
Yoops, I always love when you jump in on my threads, great advice! I love the thought about the crystal 120L, didn't really know that so that's great advice, and the sugar for drying will be fantastic.

I'm worried that if I go specifically heavy on the late addition hops then he'll be disappointed with the lack of bitterness, even if he's thrilled with the aroma. He definitely said he wanted the bitter beer face, and wanted the bitterness "outside the scope of what the average beer drinker would find enjoyable."
 
Yoops, I always love when you jump in on my threads, great advice! I love the thought about the crystal 120L, didn't really know that so that's great advice, and the sugar for drying will be fantastic.

I'm worried that if I go specifically heavy on the late addition hops then he'll be disappointed with the lack of bitterness, even if he's thrilled with the aroma. He definitely said he wanted the bitter beer face, and wanted the bitterness "outside the scope of what the average beer drinker would find enjoyable."

You can certainly increase the bittering hops. Keep in mind that it's impossible to get more than about 100 IBUs in a wort anyway, even though it calculates much higher, because the wort will reach a saturation point with the hops oils and they will no longer isomerize. Even Pliny the Elder, which calculates out to something like 250 IBUs actually tests out at 80-90 IBUs.

Using words like "violently hoppy" is different than "violently bitter", so I'd clarify with him if he wants "hoppy" or "bitter". They are not the same thing at all!
 
Or...

10lb 2-row
4lb Maris Otter
4lb Belgian White Wheat
1lb Crystal 60L
1lb Carapils

1oz Warrior @60min.
2oz Simcoe @ 60min.
3oz Apollo @ 60 min.
1oz Warrior @55min.
1oz Warrior @50min.
1oz Cascade @45min.
1oz Cascade @40min.
1oz Cascade @35min.
1oz Simcoe @ 0min.
1oz Citra@ 0min.

2oz Citra Dry hop
2oz Chinook Dry Hop
for 7 to 10 days on the hops.
 
Or...

10lb 2-row
4lb Maris Otter
4lb Belgian White Wheat - head retention
1lb Crystal 60L - color
1lb Carapils mouth feel

1oz Warrior @60min. Whole hops
2oz Simcoe @ 60min. Whole hops
3oz Apollo @ 60 min. Whole hops

Whole hops in 3 muslin bags at the start of the boil

1oz Warrior @55min. - pellet
1oz Warrior @50min. - pellet
1oz Cascade @45min. - pellet
1oz Cascade @40min. - pellet
1oz Cascade @35min. - pellet

these late additions support the bitterness and will acentuate the aroma of the dry hop

1oz Simcoe @ 0min. - pellet
1oz Citra@ 0min. - pellet

2oz Citra Dry hop - pellet
2oz Chinook Dry Hop - pellet

for 7 to 10 days on the hops.
 
Yooper said:
I'd definitely take out the 2 pounds of crystal 120l- or at least reduce it by at least 3/4. It has a burnt raisiny taste that will not complement an IIPA.

I'd consider reducing some of the grain and using corn sugar, so the finish is crisp and dry and not cloying and thick.

Like this:

12lb 2-row
4lb Vienna
1 pound corn sugar (or two pounds to hit your OG)
.5 pound carapils
.25 pound crystal 120L (if using) or .5 pound crystal 40L

And then for hopping, I'd go with a schedule with lots and lots of late hops that go together- like in Pliny the Elder's combo. I wouldn't use warrior at 15 minutes- it's a great bittering hop but doesn't give much hops flavor or aroma. He may say he wants bitterness, but if someone likes IPAs, it's about the hops and not just bitterness. A firmly bitter IPA without hops flavor and aroma would be weird, and not tasty.

Maybe something like this:
1-2 oz warrior @60min. (or 50 IBUs with this addition)
1 oz simcoe 15 minutes
1 oz citra 10 minutes
1 oz amarillo 10 minutes
1 oz citra 5 minutes
1 oz simcoe 1 minute
1 oz amarillo 1 minute
Dryhop with 1 ounce each of citra, amarillo, and simcoe

Exactly. Exactly...
 
You can certainly increase the bittering hops. Keep in mind that it's impossible to get more than about 100 IBUs in a wort anyway, even though it calculates much higher, because the wort will reach a saturation point with the hops oils and they will no longer isomerize. Even Pliny the Elder, which calculates out to something like 250 IBUs actually tests out at 80-90 IBUs.

Using words like "violently hoppy" is different than "violently bitter", so I'd clarify with him if he wants "hoppy" or "bitter". They are not the same thing at all!


Really?? The things you learn around here....

I just texted him about his use of hoppy and bitter and his exact words were (edited for "freshness") "Violently hoppy, and pretty F-ing bitter."

This recipe is making me feel overwhelmed for some reason. There are so many different ways to make a great beer, it's almost impossible to decide which route will be the "best"
 
BudzAndSudz said:
Really?? The things you learn around here....

I just texted him about his use of hoppy and bitter and his exact words were (edited for "freshness") "Violently hoppy, and pretty F-ing bitter."

This recipe is making me feel overwhelmed for some reason. There are so many different ways to make a great beer, it's almost impossible to decide which route will be the "best"

All the hops prior to 20 min will likely disappoint... seriously, 1-2 oz (50-60 IBUs) at 60, everything else after 20. Don't waste good hops ;)
 
This is a fantastic discussion for me, because I toured a brewery this weekend and was making some mental notes along these lines but couldn't quite put it into words. They had two different pale ales, one at 40IBU and the other at 87IBU, and seriously the two beers were almost exactly the same. I'm wondering if they just didn't have a good grasp on timing the additions as well.
 
BrewKnurd said:
If you want violently bitter, put 90 or so IBUs in a 1.030 beer. That will be violent. :D

Oh my...

Violent, in this case, equates to unsinkable :d
 
If he wants it super hoppy and bitter you'll need to change the malt to hops ratio. I'd suggest the most barebones grain bill you can stand and then use that as something to build on. Every character malt is going to add something to the final product in terms of flavor, mouth feel, unfermentable sugars, and body. All of these things also change your perception of bitterness. And 20% white wheat is way to much for this thing to be an IPA in my opinion, of course.

And this all got said while I was typing...
 
This is a fantastic discussion for me, because I toured a brewery this weekend and was making some mental notes along these lines but couldn't quite put it into words. They had two different pale ales, one at 40IBU and the other at 87IBU, and seriously the two beers were almost exactly the same. I'm wondering if they just didn't have a good grasp on timing the additions as well.

Some breweries calculate the IBUs (which can be flawed as we've discussed) and others actually test them with a spectrometer.

Besides actual IBUs, some ingredients will make the perceptible bitterness lower. For example- a beer with 20% crystal malt will taste sweeter than a beer with no crystal malt, with the same IBUs and OG. Also, two beers with exactly the same IBUs (lets say 60) but one with an OG of 1.040 and one with an OG of 1.080 will taste completely different- the 1.040 beer will be very bitter while the 1.080 beer will taste a bit sweet. It has to do with the IBU/SG ratio.

The IBU/SG ratio is very useful in formulating recipes. For example, in my Fizzy Yellow Beer recipe, the OG was 1.048 while the IBUs were 19.8. The IBU/SG ratio is .410. It's not bitter, but instead just has enough bitterness to balance the sweet malt. In my current IPA, the OG was 1.060 and the IBUs were 58. The ratio is .969. In other words, it's pretty darn bitter compared to the other beer- more than twice as bitter.

The ratio is actually more important than the actual IBUs, as a beer with 87 IBUs with an OG of 1.090 won't really be all that bitter. Not like a 1.045 beer with 75 IBUs, anyway!

I hope that all makes sense.

In any case, with IIPAs and hopmonsters, even the IBU/SG ratio goes out of the window because of the problem with calculating IBUs over 100. Either way, you should still make sure your IBU/SG ratio is over 1.200 but then don't worry about it. Just keep in mind that a high OG can take a lot more hops than a lower OG beer, so even though the IBUs may be the same (or vastly different) if the ratio is similar, it will have a similar level of bitterness.
 
Some breweries calculate the IBUs (which can be flawed as we've discussed) and others actually test them with a spectrometer.

Besides actual IBUs, some ingredients will make the perceptible bitterness lower. For example- a beer with 20% crystal malt will taste sweeter than a beer with no crystal malt, with the same IBUs and OG. Also, two beers with exactly the same IBUs (lets say 60) but one with an OG of 1.040 and one with an OG of 1.080 will taste completely different- the 1.040 beer will be very bitter while the 1.080 beer will taste a bit sweet. It has to do with the IBU/SG ratio.

The IBU/SG ratio is very useful in formulating recipes. For example, in my Fizzy Yellow Beer recipe, the OG was 1.048 while the IBUs were 19.8. The IBU/SG ratio is .410. It's not bitter, but instead just has enough bitterness to balance the sweet malt. In my current IPA, the OG was 1.060 and the IBUs were 58. The ratio is .969. In other words, it's pretty darn bitter compared to the other beer- more than twice as bitter.

The ratio is actually more important than the actual IBUs, as a beer with 87 IBUs with an OG of 1.090 won't really be all that bitter. Not like a 1.045 beer with 75 IBUs, anyway!

I hope that all makes sense.

In any case, with IIPAs and hopmonsters, even the IBU/SG ratio goes out of the window because of the problem with calculating IBUs over 100. Either way, you should still make sure your IBU/SG ratio is over 1.200 but then don't worry about it. Just keep in mind that a high OG can take a lot more hops than a lower OG beer, so even though the IBUs may be the same (or vastly different) if the ratio is similar, it will have a similar level of bitterness.

While I agree with all of this... I think that terminal gravity is a very important part of the equation. There are many variables involved with TG but I think that the notion of BU:GU (Thank you Mr. Daniels) is a great tool to use, but a 1.008 beer with 50 IBUs will be very different than a 1.018 with 50 IBUs. One could argue that those terminals would relate to the OG, but I find that grist composition and mash temp play such a huge role in TG that comparing BU:GU from a purely OG stand point is flawed.
:mug:
 
While I agree with all of this... I think that terminal gravity is a very important part of the equation. There are many variables involved with TG but I think that the notion of BU:GU (Thank you Mr. Daniels) is a great tool to use, but a 1.008 beer with 50 IBUs will be very different than a 1.018 with 50 IBUs. One could argue that those terminals would relate to the OG, but I find that grist composition and mash temp play such a huge role in TG that comparing BU:GU from a purely OG stand point is flawed.
:mug:

I agree! A brew with lots of unfermentables (crystal comes to mind) will finish at a higher FG and have more perceptible residual sweetness to offset the IBUs. And I wouldn't want to drink many 50 IBU 1.008 FG beers (except for my beloved IPAs :D).

So while the SG/IBU ratio is helpful and important, it's not the be-all. But it is certainly better than JUST looking at IBUs which I think many brewers tend to do. I've heard people say- "oh, 70 IBUs! That's too much!" without taking into consideration that we're talking about a barley wine and a barley wine NEEDS 70 IBUs in many cases.
 
This thread has win written all over it for me! My wife and I are the same as your buddy we are dying to have a violently hoppy beer im really excited to see what you come up with. I would love to give my 2 cents but im still somewhat of a noob and im here to learn! Subscribed!!!!!
 
As yooper stated we cannot perceive more than 100 ibu's what I think your friend wants is a strong hop flavored beer. I would recommend soon a significant flavor addition at like 15-20 minutes than hop bursting at flame out with like 5+ ounces at the end. Great ipa hops are cascade, centennial, falconers flight and I've been really enjoying citra hops as of late as well.
 
when i think of the "bitter face" as you say it makes me think of the really citrusy almost acid like flavor from late hop additions. If your buddy hasn't gotten it from some commercial examples my guess is that its because he isn't getting it quite fresh enough. I thought the same thing, that no commercial IPAs were hoppy enough or even came close to my homebrew, but then i started really checking dates and trying to get as fresh as possible.

i digress though. I think what your buddy is looking for is really something that feels like it is stripping the enamel off your teeth, and doing some damage to your palate. load it up with late hop additions and dry hops especially. make it dry and serve it young, and i don't think you or him will be disappointed.

i hope he is tossing some money in for ingredients. those hops are going to add up $$$
 
I'm surprised nobody has suggested it, but try modifying your water profile. Adding certain minerals to reverse osmosis water will bring out more "bite" from the hops.
 
IMHO if you really want the hops & bitter to shine then Yooper was on the right track with simplifying the grain bill. Lagunitas Daytime Session IPA is a great example of how a lower gravity makes it easier to accentuate the hops. I made a session IPA that was great and the BU:GU was 1.68 (OG 1.041, FG 1.013, calculated IBU 83). If he wants hoppy then keep everything else about it simple.

Don't worry, if he doesn't think it's hoppy enough I'm sure you can find some way to "dispose" of the rest ;-)

Call me crazy, but I can appreciate super bitter - nothing like harvesting hops and throwing one between cheek and gum and feeling that side of your face shrivel up and cave in. (although you better reserve yourself to drinking water the rest of the day because you can't taste anything).
 
I had a feeling he was.... but sometimes the level of intelligence on internet message boards tends to be questionable at best so I had to make sure :)
 
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