Infection Questions

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Wild_Fly

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Hey everyone. I have a few questions regarding infections, but first the backstory.

I brewed a Saison a few months ago, which I had many complications with such a unreliable temperature control and stuck fermentation. Long story short, the Saison was sour, very sour. I didn't realize this until after I brewed an Oktoberfest, which I racked into the primary with the same racking cane (sanitized in Star-San as usual) I used for the Saison. The Oktoberfest took about 36 hours for fermentation to go crazy, but I pitched 200 billion cells for 5 gallons at 58F then it was brought down to 47F, so the slow start seemed normal. It has been 2 weeks exactly and the beer is at the intended FG and my reading indicate it is done fermenting. However, it doesn't really taste right. I think it kinda tastes sour and a bit watery. I don't know if I'm actually tastes tartness or not. I also do not have a LHBS to go get an opinion.

So my questions are:
1. How long does an infection take to develop and produce enough flavors to detect?
2. Can an infection continue to produce flavors even if there are no more sugars left to eat?
3. There was definitely a watered down-ness to beer, where could this come from?

P.S. The beer was in a brand new carboy as well.

Thanks for the help.
 
You might be tasting a lot of things that can be perceived as sour. It could be tannins due to a ph issue or even suspended yeast. Lagers take a great deal of time to even out. I have had lagers that I thought about dumping only to later have them score very will at competition. The beer tasted like crap early. Just give it lots of time to cold condition.

You may have an infection......however, an infection usually would in my opinion, give a more vinegary taste. Judging a lager young is tough to do.
 
Some saison strains contain brettanomyces. This could be giving you the tartness. People who routinely make sour beers will have separate carboys and racking canes so that the brett does not cross contaminate. Since normal sanitization will not kill brett. Maybe this it? Not sure about the watered down issue though.
 
Thanks for the replies. Reinstone, what kind of ph issues could there be? I have not learned a lot about ph yet.

two one seven, I used wyeast 3724 in the saison do you know if this strain has brett in it? I believe it is Duponts strain.
 
Thanks for the replies. Reinstone, what kind of ph issues could there be? I have not learned a lot about ph yet.

two one seven, I used wyeast 3724 in the saison do you know if this strain has brett in it? I believe it is Duponts strain.

If you are doing all grain and the ph is too high, you can get tannin pickup. Think of a red wine taste...the puckering. In the past I had certain astringent qualities in my lighter beers until I started understanding water in the brewing process. If I knew the recipe and how you performed the brew I might be able to help. I am finding it funny that in a worldwide forum both 217 and I reside in the same city (so to speak). It's funny that we both responded.
 
Some saison strains contain brettanomyces. This could be giving you the tartness. People who routinely make sour beers will have separate carboys and racking canes so that the brett does not cross contaminate. Since normal sanitization will not kill brett. Maybe this it? Not sure about the watered down issue though.

Didn't know normal sanitation won't kill Bret, I won't be using that stuff.
 
Yep Brett is a yeast so the acid based sanitizers don't touch it. There are ways to get rid of it but it involves different methods.
 
The high ph could definitely be the problem. I did a little research on ph during the mash and learned some good stuff. I didn't pay attention to ph at all in any of my brews, so I don't really have any way of knowing what went wrong. Next time for sure though, I will check the ph and adjust.

Another thing I read was that it takes a long time to get rid of the sulfur smell in lagers. Could this "Sulfur" be tasted? Maybe thats also contributing to the weird flavor.
 
So I just racked to secondary and I will lager for the next few months. Thanks for the help.
 
No problem, just stick to the basics and use the water primer for all light beers. Time can do amazing things. Even an ale will change drastically after a few days of cold conditioning. Lagers are a different breed. It's like the ugly baby that grows to be beautiful. Be patient and don't mess with it. If you did a diacetal rest and want to move it along faster use gelatin in the keg or secondary. But if you are bottling add some yeast and sugar or extract before bottling. Gelatins work wonders.
 
So, just to give an update... the beer is absolutely awful. I was kegging my cream ale and tasted a sample and it had the weirdest taste. There is no real way to describe it. After taking two sips I was gagging. Absolutely disgusting. And this is even after buying a new carboy and and racking cane and airlock and plug and so on. Went to go taste the Oktoberfest and it is the same nasty flavor. I was extra careful on the cream ale with sanitizing and still got an infection. I am at my wits end with this I really dont understand how after so much attentionto detail my lasg 3 brews have all been infected. Is it possible to have a lot of this infecting bacteria or yeast in my house making it impossible to brew?
 
It's hard to say. Do you have a local brew club? If so get someone to come over and brew with you. If something is amiss then they will catch it. Infection doesn't make sense unless something is way off on your methods.
 
Sounds like it's time to really dig deep and make sure ALL of your equipment is sterilized. Heat sterilize anything that can handle it. Replace or bleach sanitize anything and everything else. Replace any plastic pieces that you can afford to replace.

Take apart everything that can be taken apart and clean then sanitize.

Evaluate the environment. Check for open windows, are you near your grain?, Chloramine in your water suddenly? Get any new equipment that might not be food grade at certain temps?

I agree with two_one_seven, sometimes just having another person take part in your brewing can reveal avenues for infection. Just remember, no matter what, you CAN solve this. You might want to try a real cheap beer for a batch or two though...
 
I am going to try heat sterilizing everything I can and I've already started bleaching some things. I use distilled water with salt additions so there really shouldn't be any chlorine or chloramine present. One thing that might seem blatantly obvious is that when I cooled my wort in an ice bath (and I just realized this) just down wind from where I cool is a garbage can. I got a copper immersion chiller and I will cool inside while covering the kettle as much as possible. Plus I am moving my brewing location to the backyard instead of inside the garage.


Are there any bacterium that can live through bleach sanitization because I did bleach one carboy (then thoroughly rinsed) and the beer still had that putrid sweaty sock flavor.
 
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