Lets talk Classic American Pilsner

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Brewpastor

Beer, not rocket chemistry
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This is the next brew on my list. All-grain, 20 - 25% flaked corn, 1.050 range. I want to use this to build up some yeast so I can do a series of lagers - Oktoberfest, Bock, Munich Helles. I am considering the Wyeast Octoberfest lager yeast blend. I am thinking of a low, long mash and a short boil(as compared to my usual lager boils). Get a little DMS for character. I will use Centennials because I have a mountain of them still. I have not settled on a hopping schedule. I am also not settled on the grain bill. I may use some acid malt, and maybe a little melanoma malt (love that pre-cancerous malt).

Let the discussion begin.
 
Not a lager, but this was my Vienna Lights Blonde Ale that everyone seemed to like at my Oktoberfest two weeks ago. I'd imagine if you used lager yeast, it would fit the profile.

Vienna Lights
Cream Ale

Type: All Grain
Date: 9/27/2008
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Brewer: slimer
Boil Size: 7.00 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Brew Pot (7.5 gal) and Igloo Cooler (10 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
1 lbs Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 8.70 %
4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (1.8 SRM) Grain 34.78 %
3 lbs Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 26.09 %
3 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 26.09 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.35 %
0.50 oz Sterling [7.80 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 14.1 IBU
0.25 oz Sterling [7.80 %] (15 min) Hops 3.2 IBU
0.25 oz Sterling [7.80 %] (5 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
0.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.058 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.012 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.13 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.61 %
Bitterness: 18.6 IBU Calories: 260 cal/pint
Est Color: 3.9 SRM Color: Color

Mash Profile

Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 11.50 lb
Sparge Water: 3.02 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 60.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Single Infusion, Medium Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 14.38 qt of water at 170.7 F 154.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 8.05 qt of water at 198.5 F 168.0 F

Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).


Created with BeerSmith
 
I am considering the Wyeast Octoberfest lager yeast blend.

A couple of guys in the local homebrew club swear this is the best yeast on the planet. I wish I was setup to do constant lagering so I could find out for myself. I suppose I could yank some kegs out of the kegerator... :drunk:

No input on a recipe but I'll be really interested to see what you come up with. CAP is one of the styles I would really like to dial in some day.
 
Interesting comments on the yeast. I haven't heard anything on it so far. "The Best Yeast on the planet" is a pretty good recommendation!
 
As I recall, predictable medium attenuation according to specs (with 3-4L starter), short lag, quick attenuation, nice balanced malt profile, works great with any style but especially vienna lagers and Oktoberfests. Also makes a good Munich Helles or any other lager beer where you want to showcase the malt profile. They did say that the yeast is too attenuative for a good doppelbock, that it dried out too much even when they mashed at 156*F. For a bock I would try it.
 
I pieced together a stab at this in July. I couldn't get enough of any of the ingredients to do Jeff Renner's recipe. I did a cereal mash with the grits (Polenta) and the six row and started the rest of the mash at 122*. Mashed at 148* for 90 min. I also boiled for 90 min like Jamil suggests. Any way it turned out tasty. I used the Czech Pilsner Yeast from Wyeast because that was available.

Main Line Pilsner
2-C Classic American Pilsner


Size: 5.77 gal
Efficiency: 79.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 198.4 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.060 (1.044 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.015 (1.010 - 1.015)
Color: 3.59 (3.0 - 6.0)
Alcohol: 5.86% (4.5% - 6.0%)
Bitterness: 32.9 (25.0 - 40.0)

Ingredients:
2.0 lb 6-Row Brewers Malt
5 lb 2-Row Brewers Malt
1.5 lb Vienna Malt
0.5 lb Lager Malt
1.5 lb Corn Grits
1.75 lb Corn Flakes
0.2 oz Magnum (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
1 oz Cluster (6.8%) - added during boil, boiled 60.0 min
0.25 oz Saaz (3.2%) - added during boil, boiled 30 min
0.25 oz Saaz (3.2%) - added during boil, boiled 5 min
2.0 ea WYeast 2278 Czech Pils
 
I brewed a lager last winter, that I will turn into a CAP this year. The big change will be mostly upping the hops to ~40 IBU's from 20 IBU's. I used ~20% flaked corn (OG was 1.048) . I can't recall the bittering hops, but I do know I used a combination of EKG and Sorachi Ace for flavoring and aroma. I used the White labs Bock yeast (833) and was quite pleased with the final results. The typical mantra is that corn and rice adjuncts don't add much flavor, but I think this is a bit overstated - depending on the yeast. I think if a typical German or Czech lager strain is used, that may be true. I found though that my beer had a richness to it, from the corn specifically, that was the result of the Bock yeast. The same richness found in a standard bock, etc, except this was just pils malt, a little 6-row and the flaked corn. The beer was still very light and drinkable, but it had a little extra oomph of flavor compared to a typical modern American lager. The beer scored a 32 (BJCP) which I was a little disappointed in, mostly because one of my dings was they said it was undercarbonated. This would have been a flaw in my filling from the keg, so that what I was drinking and enjoying wasn't exactly what the judges got.

I recall I only did a 60 min. boil and very quickly over-chilled it a little and fermented at 52, so that should have limited an diacetyl formation. I did not do a diacetyl rest before moving to secondary. When I kegged it I was bowled over by the cooked corn aroma in my hydrometer sample. I typically naturally carbonate, so instead of putting the keg in the 50's to carb, I kept it at 68 F for a couple of days. When I finally tapped into it the corn aroma had fallen into the background. This beer was great!!!! My wife claimed ownership of the keg. She likes my beers, but generally is more of an occasional taster than a drinker. Not this beer. She said who could or could not have some. Generally when friends come over they are free to help themselves to any of the beers on tap -except this one. I'll be making this again soon as it was, and then again, this time upping the hops to make it into a CAP
 
Interesting comments on the yeast. I haven't heard anything on it so far. "The Best Yeast on the planet" is a pretty good recommendation!

You might want to listen to the Jamil show podcast on Oktoberfests. They were less enthusiastic about that yeast IIRC.
 
For a CAP i would not be afraid to hit 30% Corn. Its too bad you dont have a hop more in line with a european variety, hallertau-tett-perele.
 
I'm glad I found this thread, because now is a gerat time to start thinking about spring/summer lawnmower brews. After reading Ambitious Brew, I've started thinking about a CAP for summer drinking.

It seems like a very simple beer, which means that process would play a huge role. Any of you folks who have made a CAP, what would you do different? I was thinking the typical 20% corn grits and balance of six-row malt, with a protein rest at 120-122F and decoctions to conversion temperature at 152 and again to mashout. The grits, of course, would need a cereal mash. I was thinking about mashing to conversion, then letting it simmer overnight in the crock pot. It works great for oatmeal, so why not grits?

As for hops, I was thinking 40 IBU's of Sterling with Tett at 10 minutes for flavor and aroma. I have an ale fermenting right now with Charlie P's Cry Havoc yeast that I was thinking about saving and using in lager mode afterward. The rumor is that it's a descendant of Budweiser's yeast from 30 years or so ago, and that it's very clean when fermented at lager temperatures.

So, CAP brewers, what would you change from your original recipes? I figure for this much effort, I'd put ten gallons down to lager until at least May.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sounds like a tasty brew to me. Maybe I will make a CAP as well. I have a recipe I like that I call Czecher CAB, sort of a Czech CAP. It is 25% flaked maze and about 40 IBUs. I have some Wyeast Oktoberfest blend waiting for a job.
 
I recently did a Pre Pro style CAP with nothing but 6-row and corn, hopped with Clusters all the way through. I took the bad advice of a fellow brewer and used the S-23 yeast...do not do this. After a lot of lagering it is starting to become drinkable so I might carb it and see how it turns out but that strain is far too fruity for a Pilsner. I will make this beer again some time since I really like the other flavors in it, and I will use a more appropriate yeast.

In short, S-23 is an over-attenuating diacetyl producing piece of **** that should be used by no one for any reason...ever. And no, this was not the first or only time I had used it, it's just consistently bad.
 
I've got round #3 lagering now of my 1950s Brooklyn Lager/Pilsner hybrid. It's substantially the same as pre-Prohibition lager beers, as the Brooklyn brewers with few exceptions didn't change their recipes afterwards.

The numbers did tend to drop - OG, AE, IBU, etc. - but the basic format remained the same, and the Brooklyn beers were far more flavorful than the factory-produced beer that killed the Brooklyn breweries.

Link is in my sig and in my drop-down.

Bob
 
I have all the ingredients to brew a cap but have not found the right recipe combination to move forward. Not sure what yeast to use. Getting mixed reviews but I have the availability to bounce questions off a brewpub brewer, and maybe I could use his lager yeast. Dunno. Seems in a beer like this yeast outweighs everything else and is a crucial ingredient to get it right. RDWHAHB I guess!
 
Willie,

Wyeast 2272 is, in my opinion, the only appropriate yeast for this application, as it is a direct descendant of the Christian Schmidt strain in wide use in Eastern lager-beer breweries around the turn of the 20th century. There were others, but they are no longer commercially available.

Cheers,

Bob
 
NQ3X,
Do you mean Wyeast #2278 Czech Pils yeast? I don't see a Wyeast #2272.

I'm hopefully brewing some sort of Pils tomorrow...if my starter gets its butt in gear. But mine is just German Pils malt/Vienna malt/Acid malt with Saaz hops so I guess mine is more like a Czech/Bohemian Pils...but probably not quite as bitter...I'm shooting for 25-30 IBU. I'm starting a Wyeast Bohemian Lager #2124 but it hasn't taken off yet...I have a smack pack of #2278 in the fridge just in case. C'mon starter....gogogogog.:D
 
In short, S-23 is an over-attenuating diacetyl producing piece of **** that should be used by no one for any reason...ever. And no, this was not the first or only time I had used it, it's just consistently bad.

I had exactly the same experience pitching a proper amount of that yeast, fermenting at 49*F. Even with a 2-day D rest it was so buttery I couldn't choke it down, fortunately my Natty Ice drinking neighbor loved it so he drank the whole batch.
 
i also like the flavor profile i get from wlp820 octoberfest when combined with my baseball lager. makes a very nice quaffable lawnmower beer but is near 20% adjunct

7# pils
1# f corn
1#f rice
1/2 oz cascade 60min
1/2 oz cascade 30min

mash @148 for 90min

est og 1.035
fg 1.005
18 ibu
2.9 srm
 
OK, cereal mashers. A question.

Supposing I do a cereal mash with grits / polenta. Should I protein rest the cereal mash as well, or just infuse it to conversion temperature straightaway? The cereal mash would be 6 lb of 6-row and 4 of grits, and the main mash would be 12 lb of 6-row, plus the cereal mash.

I'm trying to decide how best to step from protein rest to conversion temperatures, and adding the cereal mash to boost the temperature seems like a good way to do it. I'm realliny trying to make this beer crystal clear, so I'm worried about haze from the protein in the cereal mash if I don't rest it first.
 
The reason you do a protein rest here is to process the proteins in the 6-row.

Also, I think mixing the grits with malt in the separate mash isn't wise. The reason to keep the unmalted grains separate is to boil them, releasing the starches. It's not really a mash, per se. When you add the boiling-hot grits to the 6-row, you use that heat (and liquor) raise the temperature of the real mash in the main tun.

Cheers,

Bob
 
Thanks for the input. I've heard of people mashing part of the malt with the grits, but I didn't get the point of it, since we want to gelatinize the starch, not turn it to sugar in the cereal mash (which wouldn't work anyhow, since boiling the cereal is just a tad over the temperature that will denature amylase).

My understanding is improved.
 
No, I specified 2272, which I see has been discontinued.

Dammit! That was the perfect strain! *!&~%!! :mad:

I just emailed them asking what happened.

Poo!

Bob
Thanks. I just looked at my old Wyeast descriptions and found the #2272 North American Lager Yeast. Malty finish, Hi Floc/ AA% 70%-76% (48o-56o F).:)
 
Got an email back within a couple hours from Brian Perkey at Wyeast. While they still have 2272 in their bank, they removed it from the full-time lineup due to slow sales. Depending on demand, they may release it through the Private Collection program. The recommended sub is 2035.

I sent a reply asking about the Christian Schmidt strain, but it was sent at ~5:30PM Friday EST. I don't expect a response until Monday. ;)

Cheers,

Bob
 
Another CAP question: Water.

To treat or not to treat?

I'm leaning toward diluting my out-of-the-tap Denver water with distilled to soften it down to Pilsen-like levels. Good or bad for a CAP? MY gut says good, to keep the relatively high IBU's from being too harsh, but I'd be interested in getting input from the experts.
 
OK. This one's in the bag. 'twas a long brewday, what with the decoctions and all. I had a hard time hitting temps on this mash -- I kept coming in low after decoction. I wonder if I wasn't pulling too much thick mash and not enough liquid? Anyhow, it wasn't anything that letting the mash rest a couple of hours for wouldn't fix.

I learned two things on this brew:

(1) Kettle defoamer is good stuff.
(2) I need some leaf hops in the boiler to keep from pulling a bunch of trub up through the scrubby and diptube. Wow, is there a lot of break and hops in my fermenter.

Beautiful clear wort after settling, though.
 
Unfortunately, we've had some warm weather here in Denver, so my lager is fermenting around 60F, rather than the 55F I wanted. Maybe I'll call it a hybrid. We'll see if it turns into a fruit bomb or not.
 
Alright, I'm going around bumping all the old CAP threads, since I'm preparing to brew one myself. Jds, how'd it turn out? Fruit bomb or no?

Also fishing for any wisdom on CAP's that any of you have acquired in the two years since this thread went cold. Thanks!
 

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