LHBS Etiquette

Let me preface this by stating that I love my LHBS. The prices are right, always have what I need in stock, and great guys.

My only "issue" with them is I have notice the crush on my grains is not always the best. I can see a decent amount of non cracked grains in the mash.

My efficiency is not terrible, I average 65% to 67% on lighter beers and around 70% on darker beers (also depends on what calculater I use - beersmith vs brewersfriend.) I really do not know my water profile, but I feel I may be able to get a little better extraction if I have them mill the grains a second time. Would it be insulting to them to ask them to mill them twice? Not that I blame my efficiency issues on them. I am still relatively new to all grain (7 batches) and for all I know, it could be just technique and learning water chemistry.

FWIW, I use a 10 gallon rectangular cooler and batch sparge with single sparge.

Any input will be helpful.

Thanks,

Joe

I think it is fine to ask, my grain source does the same thing. The grain is barely cracked to the point I thought they forget to crush it. I just ended up buying a mill so I could crush my own grain fresh when needed. But I see no issue with asking for a second crush. My LHBS says their crush has been adjusted based on customer requests to suit the masses, it may be the same for you. This is fine, but you are a paying customer and it may not work for you then you should ask for what you want.

ChrisL_ said:

I think it is fine to ask, my grain source does the same thing. The grain is barely cracked to the point I thought they forget to crush it. I just ended up buying a mill so I could crush my own grain fresh when needed. But I see no issue with asking for a second crush. My LHBS says their crush has been adjusted based on customer requests to suit the masses, it may be the same for you. This is fine, but you are a paying customer and it may not work for you then you should ask for what you want.

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^^^^^

My local has a mill up front that any one can use no charge the problem with it is its lowest setting is still twice as wide as my home mill. MY eff with the mill was always 64% now that i have my own my first 5 or so batches went to 74% with my last two batches hitting 84%

Sure you can ask them to run it through a second time.

Also, you can probably increase your extraction by increasing sparge temperature. You should be targeting a sparge temperature around 168F - 170F, which means the sparge water strike temps need to be in the 185F range. The exact temp depends on your mash tun, water volumes and mash temperature prior to adding sparge water.

I don't think it's rude to ask for a double-crush. I mill my own, and I've noticed a big improvement from changing my routine to consistenly mill my grains twice instead of just once. Initially I was worried about stuck sparges, but so far (knock on wood), it hasn't been a problem, and I haven't even been adding rice hulls yet. If I start getting stuck sparges, I've got a half-sack (25 lbs) of rice hulls to address it when the time comes.

Getting 70% with batch sparging isn't really that bad, but I don't think it's rude to ask them to run it through again.

I was actually going to start a topic about LHBS crush but this will do nice as etiquette was brought up. I see no problem at all with approaching your LHBS staff and asking them to look at your crush and make any adjustments necessary. I literally did this exact thing yesterday. My LHBS switched out grain mills and seems to have a new mgr, nice guy, but not real knowledgeable actually. I showed him a very, very poor crush I received, even to my relative noob eye, and we both went back to the mill. He didn't know how to adjust it! I am somewhat mechanically inclined, but do not own my own mill. It took about 3 seconds for me to figure out how to adjust the rollers and boom, ended up with a great crush. I do a lot of BIAB, but I'm actually slightly concerned that it might be too fine for the typical AG guys. I mentioned something on the way out. Needless to say he was appreciative, and I was happy to have helped.

I have the same problem with the crush from midwest. Then I bought the barley crusher grain mill. I left it set at the factory lash of .039",which is marked on the roller setting knobs. Way more even crush. My OG's went up a few points as a result.

I live a mile away from 2 lhbs. One has an adjustable mill, the other does not.

The non-adjustable mill often binds up while milling wheat or rye, and the employees have to manually reset the mill. Huge pita! And the crush is so coarse that my eff was in the low 60s. An employee told me this is a ploy to sell more grain...


Guess which lhbs gets my business?

I'm with the others here, I don't think it is fine to talk with the LHBS workers about either adjusting the mill or running the grain through a second time.

I work at a LHBS with an adjustable mill (3 roller Crankenstein). The mill gets adjusted all the time based on what's going through it and what the customers want. Personally I always set the mill as tight as I can get it for any batch unless the customer asks otherwise. We have lots of customers who ask to have the crush run twice. All the customers I know who ask happen to also be BIAB guys. I certainly don't care how many times you ask me to run the grain. I'm there til we close. If you want me to stand there all day and run the grains 100 times that's fine with me... Don't be afraid to ask for what you want at any LHBS. If they give you attitude just make the owner aware you're unhappy. Most owners I know will bend over backwards for customers. The same can't be said for all LHBS employees all the time.

Gitmoe said:

I work at a LHBS with an adjustable mill (3 roller Crankenstein). The mill gets adjusted all the time based on what's going through it and what the customers want. Personally I always set the mill as tight as I can get it for any batch unless the customer asks otherwise. We have lots of customers who ask to have the crush run twice. All the customers I know who ask happen to also be BIAB guys. I certainly don't care how many times you ask me to run the grain. I'm there til we close. If you want me to stand there all day and run the grains 100 times that's fine with me... Don't be afraid to ask for what you want at any LHBS. If they give you attitude just make the owner aware you're unhappy. Most owners I know will bend over backwards for customers. The same can't be said for all LHBS employees all the time.

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I agree, I recently opened my own lhbs and have no problem running it through as many times as the customer would like. I'm there before opening and after closing so whatever makes the customer happy and satisfied with their purchase I am more than will to do.
I try to make my place somewhere I would like to shop, no elitism or talking down to customers (which I had expierenced at some shops when I was learning), just a bunch of people who enjoy talking, making, and drinking a good brew.

+1 on customer being right, ask for what you want. It will be your stuck sparge afterall (just joking). If I was the LHBS owner I would appreciate your input. Might just make him adjust his mill rollers.

novahokie09 said:

Also, you can probably increase your extraction by increasing sparge temperature. You should be targeting a sparge temperature around 168F - 170F, which means the sparge water strike temps need to be in the 185F range. The exact temp depends on your mash tun, water volumes and mash temperature prior to adding sparge water.

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Temp of the sparge has little effect on efficiency...if you wanted you could sparge with cold water, as show by Braukaiser:

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/

I agree that crush has more effect on effciency. I just like to sparge up to boil volume,rather than just adding water. My 2c worth...

broadbill said:

Temp of the sparge has little effect on efficiency...if you wanted you could sparge with cold water, as show by Braukaiser:

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/

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+1

OP -
Another alternative is requesting a tighter gap when they crush. Many LHBS have adjustable mills and will happily tighten it for you.

I'd also encourage you to tell them the numbers you've been getting...if they know what others are getting, they can either adjust their crush or tell you if it's something with your process. If they don't know what others are getting, they'll appreciate learning I bet.

SoupNazi said:

I live a mile away from 2 lhbs. One has an adjustable mill, the other does not.

The non-adjustable mill often binds up while milling wheat or rye, and the employees have to manually reset the mill. Huge pita! And the crush is so coarse that my eff was in the low 60s. An employee told me this is a ploy to sell more grain...


Guess which lhbs gets my business?

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I took the very course crush as an incentive for customers to buy a mill. So I did! I cost me $100 but now I have control of my own crush, which I like.

broadbill said:

Temp of the sparge has little effect on efficiency...if you wanted you could sparge with cold water, as show by Braukaiser:

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/

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I think this experiment is interesting, but how many people mash at 158F and mashout for 15 minutes at 168?

If you don't mash out, you're not getting to the 168F -170F range. In this experiement, he takes the mash up to 168F for 15 minutes at the end of a 50 minute mash at 158F. He claims no difference in extraction when mashing out, but no conclusions were drawn on the scenario without a mash out.

My experience suggets that lower mash temps without a mashout benefit from a 168F -170F temp mash during the sparging process, which results from batch sparge water strike temperature around 185F. I saw about 5 - 7 point increase in efficiency since implementing this process. Most of my mashes occur in the 148F - 152F range, and I do not mash-out. YMMV.

Wow. Wasn't expecting this many responses. I will see if they will double mill next time. But I will also start saving for a mill. That way, no one to blame but myself.

I am using a Corona style mill but I didn't get it for crush reasons, I got it because I wanted to keep grains on hand so I didn't have to order every time I want to brew. Un-milled grains stay fresh longer than milled grains. Got a birthday coming up soon? I asked for mine for Christmas. So I liked the price. Wish I had rich relatives - I would have asked for a MM3.

Magic8Ball said:

+1 on customer being right, ask for what you want. It will be your stuck sparge afterall (just joking). If I was the LHBS owner I would appreciate your input. Might just make him adjust his mill rollers.

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Customer is always right....except for the guy who always fills the mill with grain before it is turned on. That guy is wrong.

j/k easily fixed. I manage a brew shop with completely adjustable mills, and I echo the others who say mill as many times as you want. We encourage customers to run a few ounces of 2-row through before they crush their recipe to ensure the crush meets their expectations.

But the adjustable mills are a double-edged sword - you have freedom, but it is also up to the customer to check their own crush to make sure it meets their needs. Most customers like the freedom, but occasionally someone doesn't pay attention and goes home with a crush they don't like. It happens.