Triple IPA hop schedule opinions?

Hey guys,

I've been brewing for a few years now. Thankfully, I have been enjoying a good success rate so far. Pretty much every batch is great, and they are consistent.

I have never been very daring with my recipes. I tend to change amounts in small increments out of fear of going overboard. With my IPAs, I have been adding more and more hops and each time I find myself thinking I should have added more.

So after making quite a few successful IPAs, I want to make a really big and bold IPA.

The recipe should yield about 10% abv. I tend to get better attenuation than the calculator predicts, so probably more. I may tone down the dextrose to keep things around the 10% mark.

My main concern is whether I have too big a hop addition at the 10 and 0 min marks. I mean, even Pliny uses quite a bit less from what I remember. So do you guys think this plan is ridiculous? (Edit: I guess it's hard to define ridiculous. I'm not worried about the IBUs, I'm just wondering if there comes a point where it's just too much hops flavor, even in this big a beer.)

Thanks for your time!

https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/winter-warmer-iipa

9.0 lb Liquid Malt Extract - Light - (60%)
4.0 lb 2-Row (US) - (26.6%)
1.5 lb Dextrose (Corn Sugar) (10%)
0.5 lb Caramel/Crystal 60L (US) (3%)

2.0 oz Columbus (US) 60 min Boil Pellet 12.5%

2.0 oz Amarillo (US) 10 min Boil Pellet 6.9%
2.0 oz Chinook (US) 10 min Boil Pellet 11.8%
2.0 oz Cascade (US) 10 min Boil Pellet 6.8%
2.0 oz Simcoe (US) 10 min Boil Pellet 13.0%

3.0 oz Amarillo (US) 0 min Boil Pellet 6.9%
3.0 oz Cascade (US) 0 min Boil Pellet 6.8%
3.0 oz Chinook (US) 0 min Boil Pellet 11.8%
2.0 oz Simcoe (US) 0 min Boil Pellet 13.0%

2.0 oz Chinook (US) 7 days Dry Hop Pellet 11.8%
2.0 oz Amarillo (US) 7 days Dry Hop Pellet 6.9%
2.0 oz Simcoe (US) 7 days Dry Hop Pellet 13.0%
2.0 oz Cascade (US) 7 days Dry Hop Pellet 6.8%

I would move most of the 10min to the 0min and do a massive long hopstand. This is the single greatest thing I did to improve my IPAs. Leave maybe 2oz or so at 10min depending on how much additional bitterness you want, but youll get the most flavor and aroma from that hopstand

2 pounds of hops in a 5 gallon batch seems excessive to me but what do I know. I agree with Moops that a big hop stand works wonder. I have done it and found no need for dry hopping. Tons of aroma, flavor and still the right bitterness. Granted, that was with 8.5 total oz of hops. I would wonder if you are pushing the limits of diminishing returns here.

m00ps said:

I would move most of the 10min to the 0min and do a massive long hopstand. This is the single greatest thing I did to improve my IPAs. Leave maybe 2oz or so at 10min depending on how much additional bitterness you want, but youll get the most flavor and aroma from that hopstand

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How long of a hop stand and would you recommend? He is using pellets, so I would assume that the hop stand could be fairly short. But I have been wrong before... Also, what temp have u done your hop stands at? Right at flameout? Or drop the temp to 180 or so?

I too would shift most of the 0min addition to a hopstand. Probably subisomeric range to not get more IBUs and more flavor. You can comfortably do that temp for 60min and get increasing amounts of flavor. Maybe then when the temp drops do another load in tepid. Longest I have done is 40min subisomeric and then another 80min in tepid. Still fermenting but first sample had me utterly wowed. Did a total of 6oz there, split around in half.

Based it a lot on this article which is super helpful: https://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

And as much as I love hopstands I would still dryhop a good bit. It freshes everything up and gives you just something else. However hopstands give you a cleaner base aroma, a load of flavor from the hops alone, plus the hop oils added this way react with the yeast for even more deliciousness. Just a win all around helping you to get much more out of your hops.

I do my hopstands in 2 intervals. One addition at flameout, the other at ~180F/~30min into it. I figure the 180F addition gets a bit more aroma and less flavor so I choose how I distribute the hops accordingly

I think that you have a wasteful amount of hops in there. I also think that if it requires 29 ozs of hops to get good hop character in a TIPA then you're not using them efficiently. With that said, here's how I would change it up:

-Drop all 10 minute hop additions (-8 oz hops)
-Drop Cascade off the other additions (-5 oz hops)
-Make all flameout additions a hopstand addition with 3 oz each (+1 oz hops)
-Cool to 175F, then add hops for the hopstand and let steep for 45 minutes (stirring gently every 5 minutes)
-Dryhop half of hops in fermenting vessel (room temp for 7 days)
-Dryhop other half in the keg and leave in there (room temp for 5 days, then move keg into kegerator)

...and figure in a significant amount of lost beer due to hop absorption throughout this process.

That's an insane amount of hops for a 10% IPA. I used roughly 6 ounces in the boil and 4 ounces to dry-hop a belgian IPA I made that came in at 12.4% ABV. It was just right.

that certainly is an "insane" amount of hops, even by my standards. But thats why I want to see someone try it

m00ps said:

that certainly is an "insane" amount of hops, even by my standards. But thats why I want to see someone try it

Click to expand...

I'll try that for sure, if you pay for the hops.

Remmy said:

I'll try that for sure, if you pay for the hops.

Click to expand...

Someone should start a kickstarter - I'm in for $1

Well I actually went ahead and did it

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/740892361/the-massive-hop-stand-project

Hahah, great!

Well thanks for the ideas guys. I had no idea a hopstand could add that much flavor. I always felt my beers lacking in that big hop punch compared to some of my favorite commercial examples. I guess it comes down to technique rather than sheer quantity of hops. I actually came across that BYO article a day or so ago, and it got me thinking. The replies in here have definitely convinced me to give that a try. I'll cut down on the hops and do a big hopstand with the rest. I'm also no longer convinced I want to brew a 10% IPA.

I appreciate the comments. I'll be back with an update shortly. Happy drinking!

Oh, and also definetly use water chemistry adjustments. Proper mash ph is always great and for an IPA with punch you´ll probably want to aim for 100 chloride and around 200-250 sulfate. Makes it seem drier and the hops pop in that way I think you are seeking.

Well, this is a partial mash so the 2-row accounts for ~26% of the malt. I'm not sure how much the mash pH will affect the beer with only 26% of the malt being mashed? Either way, I recently stumbled upon a recent water report for my city and plugged the numbers into the Brewer's Friend calculator. Seems we have pretty soft water here so I will be adding some gypsum for a sulfate target of 200-250 ppm. I'm not too clear on how much chloride I have in the water because the damn water report is in French. I'm also not very clear on how all the chemistry works... I should have payed attention in school.

stpug, can I ask why you would drop the Cascade? Is it not going to be contributing anything meaningful? I'm guess maybe because it is so similar to Amarillo and the others? Originally this recipe didn't have any Simcoe in it, then I ran into some and simply added it to the bill instead of swapping out another variety. I'm seriously considering just making two batches of IPA at this point.

Thanks!

I would drop the cascade because of the amounts of other more intense hops you're using. I feel that their contribution will be minimal, if not completely over-shadowed. Save the money for later, or save the hops for later. That's the only reason.

Even if the report in in French you should be able to find CL, no? Otherwise if you send it to me I can help you figure it out. The chloride around 100 is nice to improve mouthfeel smoothness mostly. Good to have, but the Sulfates are more important for you.

I would also still aim for a 5.4-5.2 mash PH in your partial mash as it helps make things smoother as it extracts less tannins and such, and ultimately just making hops pop more and making it taste less like a homebrew.

Even though initially looking big and weird the Bru`n Water calculator is just worth gold. Not as complicated as you think and really good stuff. Enter the basic water PH, mash size, and malts used and it will tell you how much acid you need.
Also helps you calculate the amount gipsum and chloride needed. Great thing that really helped me step my brews up!

Oh thanks for the info! Here is what I am working with: http://www.laval.ca/Documents/Pages...ent-recyclage-et-collectes/valeurs-usines.pdf

Sorry about the short reply, on a quick break at work!

Hey guys,

So this is what I settled on. I couldn't drop all of the 10 minute additions because it brought me down to ~60 IBU.

These represent the amounts of hops I have in stock.

2.0 oz Columbus (US) 60 min Boil Pellet 12.5%

2.0 oz Amarillo (US) 20 min Boil Pellet 6.9%
1.0 oz Simcoe (US) 20 min Boil Pellet 13.0%

2.0 oz Chinook (US) 10 min Boil Pellet 11.8%
2.0 oz Cascade (US) 10 min Boil Pellet 6.8%

3.0 oz Simcoe (US) 45 min Whirlpool Pellet 13.0%
3.0 oz Amarillo (US) 45 min Whirlpool Pellet 6.9%
3.0 oz Chinook (US) 45 min Whirlpool Pellet 11.8%
3.0 oz Cascade (US) 45 min Whirlpool Pellet 6.8%

1.0 oz Chinook (US) 14 days Dry Hop Pellet 11.8%
1.0 oz Cascade (US) 14 days Dry Hop Pellet 6.8%
1.0 oz Simcoe (US) 14 days Dry Hop Pellet 13.0%
1.0 oz Amarillo (US) 14 days Dry Hop Pellet 6.9%

1.0 oz Cascade (US) 7 days Dry Hop Pellet 7.0%
1.0 oz Amarillo (US) 7 days Dry Hop Pellet 9.3%
1.0 oz Chinook (US) 7 days Dry Hop Pellet 12.0%
1.0 oz Simcoe (US) 7 days Dry Hop Pellet 13.0%

Small update. I undershot my O.G. by 20 points somehow. I was expecting 1.091 but landed at 1.073 post-boil. I think I screwed up my batch size calculations, which would put me at an expected 1.077 post boil, coupled with the fact that I could barely get a good boil going because of constant boil overs (even with fermcap-s) ... add to that the fact that I drank way too much and had guests over, generally a very bad brewing combination.

Updates on flavor soon!

I packaged on Saturday and the hydrometer sample tasted absolutely phenomenal. I'm really excited. This is the first time I have been able to get this big a hop flavor. I will probably try the same technique (hopstand) with less hops next time, I probably don't need as much.

The size of the hop cake was ridiculous, I only bottled 4.5 of the 6 gallons ...

Holy mother of hop sludge!!!!

Really exited to hear how this is when carbed! Great experiment.

That fermented out really low for having 9 lbs of LME in it. What yeast did you use?

Im surprised you have that much hop sludge. Do you not use bags with that much hops? Ive used close to that much in the kettle before and had less than 1/2 of that lost to hop sludge

For this batch I used two packs of US-05. Ever since I started using pure oxygen, I seem to always end up at 1.010 no matter what the recipe. The only time I have problems with attenuation is when I try another yeast.

As for hop bags, I have never tried using one. I always figured I'd lose some wort either way, whether it's in the bag or in the fermenter. But I admit this is a ridiculous amount of hop sludge. I felt bad throwing it away. I should have brewed a pale ale and just dropped it into the fermenter. I'm sure there was still some flavor in that cake.

Full taste report coming soon!

So I cooled one and tried it this evening just to see how it was coming along. To my disappointment, it tastes and feels like a barley wine. It's super heavy and has way too much body. I'm not sure how it could be 1.010. It's also very sweet. I'm pretty bummed because the malt totally dominates. It's also insanely bitter, which I expected, but almost in the way that your throat tingles when you chew on raw hops. Extreme bitterness. I'm ok with that, but the syrupy body is a huge disappointment.

I'll update once it's had some time in bottle!

Probably not carbed yet, not to speak of conditioning.

So little update for you guys. The beer turned out great. It took a bit longer for it to taste "finished" than my other brews. But despite this, it still didn't give me the big bright hop flavor I have been after for so long. I'm not sure if it's my brewing technique, hop selection, hop quality or something else. It just seems like the hop flavors are muddy. I mean, it tastes hoppy and it's still the first thing you taste and smell, but it doesn't have a bright or fresh quality to it.

Still a great beer, but it needs more work. I have tasted beers with a much better hop character from commercial breweries and I highly doubt they are using this many hops.

I got a beautiful 10 gal. mash tun for my birthday from the GF so I will finally be moving to all grain. Part of me wonders if using extract may have a part in this. There is this one background flavor I detect in absolutely every beer I have brewed, and after years of trying to narrow it down, the single last element I haven't changed is using LME. (And it's fresh.) Paying close attention to water chemistry helped a lot, but I still am not satisfied.

Sorry for the long winded post.

Cheers!

I wrote an article that is being reviewed and edited for HBT. Its about techniques to try and attain this pungent commercial-like hop character. I still need to fix errors people noted. May be able to gleam some ideas:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DHdW-a1DLgmWFfnlkHQ0esCF5e6Hkx0RyBHzsb9mCVU/edit?usp=sharing

Great write-up. Thanks for the info!

Wow, thanks for the writing m00ps. I'm doing a Maris Otter only APA tomorrow, I'll try and apply some of your interesting points.

Hey guys, I thought I'd update this thread with a little bit of info, for anyone who may be reading this in the future.

I brewed my first all grain batch last month, and just tasted a sample today. I made a really simple recipe, a) because I wanted to keep it simple and focus on the process, and b) wanted to brew something cheap in case it went horribly wrong.

The reason I wanted to mention this here, is that the hop profile is completely different from anything I have brewed before. It has a much brighter character. In fact, I would venture to say that it tastes very similar to a professional craft beer, and I used much less hops than in the beer in the original post. What I take from this is that the malt profile of the beer is closely related to the hop profile. I don't know if it's because of the simplicity of the grain bill, or because of differences in chemistry between extract brewing and all grain brewing. Either way, this beer tastes completely different than any beers I have brewed previously. I had my extract brewing down and was enjoying the pleasures of consistency, but I am now looking forward to seeing what I can do with all grain brewing. What a hobby! :rockin:

Recipe was:

11 lbs Maris Otter

0.7 oz Columbus (US) 60 min Boil Pellet 12.5%
1.0 oz Ahtanum (US) 20 min Boil Pellet 4.4%
3.0 oz Ahtanum (US) 30 min Whirlpool Pellet 4.4%
2.0 oz Ahtanum (US) 10 days Dry Hop Pellet 4.4%

US-05

OG: 1.056
FG: 1.011
IBU: 36
ABV: 5.9%