Pliny the Elder extract kit help

I have a PtE kit from O'Shea brewing co. This will be my first brew!!! I was hoping for any tweaks or tips that might help out. The kit came with 11 g Danstar Nottingham dry yeast, but the kit recommends wlp001. I actually have 2 wlp001's on the way from a PtE kit I ordered from more beer. Should I use one of these yeasts or something else? Any tweaks or tips would be greatly appreciated. Here are the ingredients and instructions:
Ingredients-
Dry and liquid malt, boiling hops, flavor hops, finishing hops, dry hops, specialty grains, irish moss, notthingham ale yeast, priming sugar.
Instructions
1-Steep grains in 2 1/2 to 3 gallons of hot water at 155 degrees for 30 min
2-Drain tea from grains into boiling kettle, rinse one or two times with hot water(170 degrees)
3-Add liquid malt extract and dry malt into kettle
4- Bring to a boil, when foam raises, reduce heat until foam recedes
5-Bring back up to a rolling boil, add "boiling hops"and start timer, boil for 60 min
6-Add "flavor hops" at 30 min
7-Add "irish moss" at 15 min
8-Add "finishing hops" last 1-2 min
9-Cool down below 80 degrees and pour into fermenter, add remaining water to bring wort to 5 1/4 gallons
10-Take specific gravity reading before adding yeast. Ensure you airate wort well, filling it with oxygen
11-Pitch yeast, cove and begin primary fermentation
12- After 1 week you may bottle
13-For a cleaner beer, rack to a secondary fermenter and let sit one more week. Add "dry hops" at this time
14-Add sugar, bottle and age at room tempt for at least 1 week

I am kegging so I do not add the priming sugar, right? Thanks for any advice!

Also this says to boil 2 and a half gallons. I have an 8 gallon kettle, so should I ignore that and boil 6 gallons? Like I said, this will be my first brew so I am just going off things I read here when researching

brewingmadness said:

Also this says to boil 2 and a half gallons. I have an 8 gallon kettle, so should I ignore that and boil 6 gallons? Like I said, this will be my first brew so I am just going off things I read here when researching

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Sure, you can do that! Just make sure that you have a burner than can boil 6+ gallons of wort (many stove tops can't) and that you have a way to chill that amount of hot wort! Many people use a chiller of some sort once they get over 3-4 gallons of wort since it's harder to chill a large volume in an ice bath (although it can be done- I've personally witnessed it).

If you decide to do a full boil, follow the instructions with when to add malt/hops.

If you decide to stick with the partial boil, I'd recommend adding the majority of the extract at the END of the boil instead of when the instructions tell you too. I'd use the dry extract when the instructions say, but add the liquid extract at flame out or just before. That would decrease the malliard reactions (like carmelization) and darkening and thickening of the wort and give you less of a "cooked extract" taste.

Either way, you'll make great beer. Pliny is one of my all-time favorites!

I definitely want to do a full boil. I have a bayou burner on the way. I also just weighed my extracts on a cheap scale so it might not be accurate, but the liquid malt extract (looks like syrup) weighs in at just under 6 lbs and the dme weighs a bit under 3.
So if I got your suggestions right, should I steep the grains the same or steep them in 6 gallons? Also, with a full boil should I add both liquid and dry extracts in the beginning still?

brewingmadness said:

I have a PtE kit from O'Shea brewing co. This will be my first brew!!! I was hoping for any tweaks or tips that might help out. The kit came with 11 g Danstar Nottingham dry yeast, but the kit recommends wlp001. I actually have 2 wlp001's on the way from a PtE kit I ordered from more beer. Should I use one of these yeasts or something else? Any tweaks or tips would be greatly appreciated. Here are the ingredients and instructions:
Ingredients-
Dry and liquid malt, boiling hops, flavor hops, finishing hops, dry hops, specialty grains, irish moss, notthingham ale yeast, priming sugar.
Instructions
1-Steep grains in 2 1/2 to 3 gallons of hot water at 155 degrees for 30 min
2-Drain tea from grains into boiling kettle, rinse one or two times with hot water(170 degrees)
3-Add liquid malt extract and dry malt into kettle
4- Bring to a boil, when foam raises, reduce heat until foam recedes
5-Bring back up to a rolling boil, add "boiling hops"and start timer, boil for 60 min
6-Add "flavor hops" at 30 min
7-Add "irish moss" at 15 min
8-Add "finishing hops" last 1-2 min
9-Cool down below 80 degrees and pour into fermenter, add remaining water to bring wort to 5 1/4 gallons
10-Take specific gravity reading before adding yeast. Ensure you airate wort well, filling it with oxygen
11-Pitch yeast, cove and begin primary fermentation
12- After 1 week you may bottle
13-For a cleaner beer, rack to a secondary fermenter and let sit one more week. Add "dry hops" at this time
14-Add sugar, bottle and age at room tempt for at least 1 week

I am kegging so I do not add the priming sugar, right? Thanks for any advice!

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Hey....I'll just call you "madness",

First of all, welcome to the awesome world of homebrewing. I have been a homebrewer for about 7 years and have loved every minute of it. In fact, I'm enjoying one of my own creations as I type this so please forgive the typos. That and the "o" key isn't wrking very well.

I looked over the instructions and the great thing about kit beers is if you follow the instructions you should end up with some really great beer.

A few things I would suggest. First, don't worry about the yeast too much. These are fairly compatible and either one should do fine. However, they usually recommend starting the yeast in some luke warm water (just read ahead so you are prepared and follow the instructions on the pack). Remember, yeast are alive and don't react well to harsh temperature changes. You probably knew that if you have an account on homebrewtalks but just in case.

Boiling:
When you're going to boil, be mindful of boil-overs. It won't hurt your beer much but man what a mess. Add extract and hops slowly and be ready to adjust the stove or burner temp to keep everything in the pot. Once everything is added, a nice rolling boil is all you need. You don't need the stove on high for the whole boil. I boil with the lid off, even when I'm doing extract beers. Plan on losing about 1/2 a gallon an hour with the lid off.

Pitching
Also, I noticed that they suggest pitching the yeast at 80 degrees, I would recommend a temperature closer to 70 degrees. It should not be too difficult to do since you will be mixing your wort with some top up water. That should should help cool it down quickly. I use an immersion chiller to cool off the wort quickly. I would like a counter-flow chiller but $ is tight. If you don't have either, about 10 minutes before the end of the boil, prepare an ice bath for the kettle. When the boil is over, set the hot kettle in the ice bath. Add ice as needed as it will heat up quickly.

So, cool wort as quickly as possible and get it in t the primary fermenter. Either shake the fermenter vigorously fr a few minutes or if you have a wort aeration system (basically an aquarium air pump with an inline air filter and a special air stone). If you have one, run that for 30-60 minutes.

Ok, your wort is in the fermenter and the yeast is "pitched." They say to let ferment 1 week then bottle. I never pull beer off the yeast cake for at least 14 days. Even though fermentation may appear to be complete, the spent yeast are still cleaning up some nastiness left over from fermentation. Around 12 days, I check gravities every day and look for stability from day to day. I also take a taste. If I taste any "buttery" flavors, or the gravity is still dropping it's not done.

Bottling/Kegging
If you're force carbonating (kegging with CO2) you do not need priming sugar (you are correct). Some guys will keg with no CO2 and condition in the keg with priming sugar. If you're not using CO2 it doesn't matter if it's in a keg or bottle, you will need priming sugar.

That's it. Follow the instructions that came with the beer and mind any advise you read and make that beer yours.

I envy you, I won't have time to brew anything until at least June.

Haha, thanks for the advice. I do have a copper wort chiller. I got the kegging kit from morebeer. Should I just do the partial boil or will the beer be better with a full boil. PtE is definitely one of my top 3 beers and I doubt it will be nearly as good, but I do want it to be close as possibly allowed with extract brewing. Eventually I'll go all grain but I feel I need to get my feet wet with extract first. BTW, stone ruination is my favorite beer, so if you have a recipe, send me a pm!

brewingmadness said:

Haha, thanks for the advice. I do have a copper wort chiller. I got the kegging kit from morebeer. Should I just do the partial boil or will the beer be better with a full boil. PtE is definitely one of my top 3 beers and I doubt it will be nearly as good, but I do want it to be close as possibly allowed with extract brewing. Eventually I'll go all grain but I feel I need to get my feet wet with extract first. BTW, stone ruination is my favorite beer, so if you have a recipe, send me a pm!

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The beer will be better with a full boil- so if you have a wort chiller do it!

If you're using nottingham yeast, it gets sort of weirdly nasty if it is fermented above about 72 degrees, so I'd chill the beer down to the low 60s if you can and keep it under 70 degrees the whole time of fermentation (beer temp, not room temperature).

I have a Stone Ruination recipe posted in our recipe database under IPAs.

Brewed both (many times) and i have found Safeale05 is a closer match than Nottingham for Pliny. 1056 is also a great choice but your not going to produce the same beer.

JoeBronco said:

Brewed both (many times) and i have found Safeale05 is a closer match than Nottingham for Pliny. 1056 is also a great choice but your not going to produce the same beer.

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Thanks, I'll have to check my stores and see if they have any

I have a couple more questions. When I feel ready I will post the tweaked instructions and see what you guys think. I appreciate the help on making my attempting to make my first brew amazing.
1) Since I am doing a full boil, should I still steep the grains in 2 and a half to 3 gallons of water. I remember reading that you should boil 2 quarts of water per lb of grains and have have about 2 lbs, which would mean a 1 gallon boil by that.
2) This kit came with irish moss, but I've read here that whirlflock tabs are better. Should I get some? I don't care about spending some more, I'd rather have a better beer. Thoughts?
3) Should I just throw the hops in the wort? I've seen a few vids where people use hop bags, but since I have 3 hops and the dry hops, would I add the hops in the bag throughout the boil and leave the same hops in the bag?

Anyone?

brewingmadness said:

I have a couple more questions. When I feel ready I will post the tweaked instructions and see what you guys think. I appreciate the help on making my attempting to make my first brew amazing.
1) Since I am doing a full boil, should I still steep the grains in 2 and a half to 3 gallons of water. I remember reading that you should boil 2 quarts of water per lb of grains and have have about 2 lbs, which would mean a 1 gallon boil by that.
2) This kit came with irish moss, but I've read here that whirlflock tabs are better. Should I get some? I don't care about spending some more, I'd rather have a better beer. Thoughts?
3) Should I just throw the hops in the wort? I've seen a few vids where people use hop bags, but since I have 3 hops and the dry hops, would I add the hops in the bag throughout the boil and leave the same hops in the bag?

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1) 2-3 gallons is fine for your steep, I personally just steep in the full boil amount and some people say thats bad because the pH is off yada yada, I find it still makes yummy beer.
2) Irish moss is fine, whirflock tabs seem to give me the same results so maybe someone else can chime in. Either way use what you got. It will produce a nice clear beer.
3)Just toss the hops in, let them roll around in the boil and if you can go pick up a stainless steel fine mess strainer... I found mine on amazon for like 8 beans, just remember to drop it in the boiling wort with 15 minutes left in the boil to sanitize it, same goes for your wort chiller. Then when you get it down to temp ~70 pour the wort through the strainer into your bucket, this will catch a lot of the trub/hop matter, and also do a good job on aerating it so your yeasties can get to work....

If you think you messed anything up, just send it over to me and i'll "Dispose" of it :cross:

My Pliny clone is in the secondary now, sure tastes like a mouthful of hops.

Enjoy.

Thank you, just ordered a strainer that should work well

something like this works just fine...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004NG9E1I/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I just make sure to break the wood out of the middle since you don't want that boiling away in your beer...

I got this one. http://www.amazon.com/HIC-Brands-that-Cook-Essentials/dp/B00428M7HK/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1337115016&sr=8-4

I figure I'd just be setting it in a funnel on top of the carboy, so size isn't as big a deal, and that one was all stainless and a decent price, so I went for it

that'll do pig. that'll do.

brewingmadness said:

I figure I'd just be setting it in a funnel on top of the carboy, so size isn't as big a deal, and that one was all stainless and a decent price, so I went for it

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you have a blow off tube setup ready right? my pliny went crazy and if i didn't have it in a big bucket i would have been cleaning up a huge mess...

Sure do. Got about everything I need for 1 brew. I need some carboys and kegs to make more beer to fill the 15 cf freezer I just got. Eventually going to make it into a keezer. I promised the wife a wheat beer next, but I have a light ale kit that came with the starter kit that I want to make for guests. 15 cf was probably overkill, but at 90 bucks on cl, I jumped. I don't see myself ever having more than 3 beers on tap

Hey Madness!
Sounds awesome, and I'm envious because I've never had the opportunity to taste a Pliny. Sad I know.

My suggestions would be to add the extract later. It helps to avoid a cooked extract tase (which I've never experienced, but I hear it's not desirable) and you'll maintain the desired color.

I prefer a par boil myself, but if you have the ability to do a full boil, go for it! No wort chiller here, and my kettle isn't nearly big enough, so that's just my personal limitations.

The yeast they provide should be fine.

As for fermentation, I always suggest racking to secondary for at least a week after. For something like Pliny that you dry hop, I hear a longer time in primary, followed by an extended stay in secondary is wonderful. (I would never bottle anything in a week either, they must be drunk )

Let us know how it turns out!

Getzinator said:

Hey Madness!
My suggestions would be to add the extract later. It helps to avoid a cooked extract tase (which I've never experienced, but I hear it's not desirable) and you'll maintain the desired color.

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Are you sure? Earlier Yooper said, "If you decide to do a full boil, follow the instructions with when to add malt/hops." I am doing a full boil. Also I have 6 lbs of lme and 3 of dme if I remember correctly. Are you saying to add it all at the end? I just want this to be as close to Pliny as possible, or better so if adding it at the end will create a similar taste, I will do this. Does anybody else concur with this?

Follow what Yooper says, imho. She's way more experienced, and may very well have done the exact same recipe you're doing already.

Just as my input, I usually add about half of my LME in the beginning when instructed (for possibly better hop extract? honestly I don't know. I'm no scientist), then the rest of my LME/DME at the end. Call it personal preference, but I don't see how a full boil protects your wort from the "negatives" of cooking your Malt Extract.

Extract time in boil seems to be more of a factor of beer color then flavor. there was an article in Brew about it. ill see if i can find it.

Thanks guys. I honestly do not care about color at all, just the taste

I'm in the same situation with brewing one of my first batches as a Pliny clone. I will be brewing a ten gallon batch. Shoul I start with 10 1/2 gallons of water to account for boil evap? I have a 14.5 gallon brew pot.

Bump

Most people factor in half to a full gallon of water lost to evaporation in a full boil per hour. I've searched "boil off" with the search tool and found that people have lost as much as 2 gallons on a 10 gallon boil. So I would suggest starting with 11gal and going from there. Adding in extra boiled water at the end to top up to 10 gal won't hurt, and it would be quicker than boiling down.

Also: Be sure to review the rules about posting in threads related to bumping. The moderators here are really nice, so make sure to keep their jobs easy by not giving them any to coach you on!

I apologize for the poor etiquette. I will indeed review the rules. Thank you for the advice!

Question for you all. I'm looking at the recipe Vinnie published in Zymurgy in 2009 and it doesn't specify adding priming sugar for bottling. I've only done a few batches but have always done this step. Is it not necessary for this recipe. If so, why not? Thanks!

jkendrick said:

Question for you all. I'm looking at the recipe Vinnie published in Zymurgy in 2009 and it doesn't specify adding priming sugar for bottling. I've only done a few batches but have always done this step. Is it not necessary for this recipe. If so, why not? Thanks!

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Yes, it is necessary. It's probably just not a step added to the recipe, as it's just something that people do with packaging, unless they keg.

I like 1 ounce of corn sugar (by weight) per finished gallon of beer. I "lose" lots of beer to dryhopping so when I make Pliny, I end up with about 4.25-4.5 gallons of finished beer if I make a 5 gallon batch!

Yooper said:

Yes, it is necessary. It's probably just not a step added to the recipe, as it's just something that people do with packaging, unless they keg.

I like 1 ounce of corn sugar (by weight) per finished gallon of beer. I "lose" lots of beer to dryhopping so when I make Pliny, I end up with about 4.25-4.5 gallons of finished beer if I make a 5 gallon batch!

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I believe that's why the original recipe calls for 8 gallons out of the mash with 5 gallons after fermentation. To account for evaporation and dryhopping. This recipe seems to be a bit off in both gravity and color.

Successful brew day for the Pliny recipe from Vinnie. I did the extract version and had to substitute Citra for Simcoe, but I hit my OG pretty close and my very first starter looked good. For my first two beers (both much lower gravity) I kept it in the primary for 3 weeks. Vinnie's recipe calls for transfer to the secondary for dry hopping as soon as activity stops. I'm guessing that will be more like a week. Is that what most folks do with Pliny? Or would three weeks in the primary still be a good idea?

Primary till its done, rack to secondary

Dry hop #1 hop pack - one week
Dry hop #2 hop pack - 3-5 days

Bottle or keg. For me its normaly about a 3 week process until i keg half and bottle half. But depending on temperature of fermentation and what the yeast is doing your at the mercy of the beer gods.

JoeBronco said:

Primary till its done, rack to secondary

Dry hop #1 hop pack - one week
Dry hop #2 hop pack - 3-5 days

Bottle or keg. For me its normaly about a 3 week process until i keg half and bottle half. But depending on temperature of fermentation and what the yeast is doing your at the mercy of the beer gods.

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So take gravity readings once the activity stops and transfer if it's right, wait if it's not?

jkendrick said:

So take gravity readings once the activity stops and transfer if it's right, wait if it's not?

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Correct. Don't use your airlock as an "activity" gauge either. Its not an accurate way to go. ALWAYS use your hydro. You don't want your beer off gassing to much when your dry hopping. Every time the airlock bubbles your losing aroma. That's why its always best to let the beer ferment out to FG (Final Gravity) before you dry hop.

Brewed yesterday! Had a couple of small boilovers, but finished with a bit over 5 gallons. The lme was fine, but that dme went nuts! It's been a bit over 24 hrs and the yeast is going. Not much foam, but the blowoff tube is bubbling the star san mix like crazy. Might've added too much. My target was 1.077, but I came in at about 1.068. Can't wait to try this, but seems like my first brew was a success. I forgot to add the irish moss at 15 min, so I added it and added another 15 min to the boil. Will this harm it at all? Thanks for all the help everyone provided!

So I know this has been discussed to death and I've read some of the bigger threads on the subject, but does anyone have an opinion on skipping secondary and dry hopping in the primary for THIS particular brew? I've read from respected members such as Revvy that people forgo secondary even for dry hopping. So could I just throw the hops directly in the primary after I hit the target FG?

Not sure, but I thought the purpose of the secondary was to get the wort off the yeast cake and then dry hop in a cleaner wort. I know my friend doesn't ever use a secondary and dry hops in the keg. Is this what you are thinking?

I'm still a beginner so I'm bottling not kegging. For my first beer I made an IPA with oak chips and just put the chips in the primary. I didn't secondary based on many of the opinions on this board. My second brew was a stout and I racked to secondary to add a cold extract coffee. The second beer was much better but I don't attribute that at all to using a secondary. It seems that racking to a secondary has more risk than benefit, the risk is oxidation and contamination vs. benefit of not sitting on yeast for too long. But the conventional wisdom seems to have shifted as to how much of a benefit this really is. This is, however, my first time dry hopping and my first higher gravity beer. So maybe there are benefits I'm unaware of, hence my question specific to THIS recipe.

Well I'd like to know the answer to this too, considering this is my first beer period and I thought I had to dry hop in a secondary