new home curse...6infected batches and counting

Regarding the experiment discussed a few posts back... I might alter that slightly. And the only reason im suggesting this is so you can convince yourself you're likely dealing with a problem other than infection. I wouldn't bother sanitizing anything for one of your samples. Make a gallonish of wort, add a little top up water from your tap just as you would've with your previous batches, siphon it through the same hoses you normally would into your fermentor (basically, make it contact everything you normally would). Put it in the same spot you ferment your beer and don't pitch yeast. If you don't have the same rip roaring infection in a few days, you have a different problem (not an infection).

If I read your original post correctly, you're diagnosing infection after less than a week. With a proper pitch of yeast, an infection in that short of a period would be next to impossible to notice. You have a couple hundred billion yeast cells going to war with few thousand cells(?) of whatever the infection is.

Now clearly you have something going on. You're correct in saying that your water's different. I'd buy di water and use that to rule your water out. Also, is it possible that the temperature in the room you're fermenting is is too high? Might sound like a strange question with you living in Canada, but if you've never had temperature get away from you in a fermentation it can be all kinds of nasty.

Last, and this is an oh by the way, you note that you're transferring to a secondary after less than a week. If you're going to use a secondary (which most here, and most experts would say you shouldn't) that's way too early.

Oops, missed the part about not being able to buy water. I'm no expert on this, since I use ro from the grocery store, but read up on water and get an analysis of your local water. Perhaps buying 6 or 7 gallons isn't practical, but is 2 or 3 so you could dilute?

Just my two cents, I think the problem is in your sanitizing routine. Somewhere above you said you rinse, I would say this combined with the unboiled tap water top off is the biggest source of infection. The number of spores of nasties in water would far exceed the amount that could drift in through a black mold infection. I say pre-boil your top up water and use starsan or Idophor and don't rinse.

On black mold my house in Hawaii had such bad black mold problem that my wife had a never ending flu for three weeks, we only pin pointed it when she had to go on a business trip and got better. Although the mold could not be seen it was in all the A/C ducts. We had to get the military housing people to come clean the condenser out and I took all the vent covers off and sprayed 10% bleach solution through all the ducts. Through all of that I was brewing and no problems. I even had a swamp cooler that grew all sorts of yuck while on an extended business trip but the beer inside was fine.

As stated before the exposure to airborne contaminates from post boil and bottling can't even come close to the exposure from rinsing your gear after sanitizing and topping up with unboiled water.

Also you have my total respect for perseverance!

Clem

Clementine said:

Just my two cents, I think the problem is in your sanitizing routine. Somewhere above you said you rinse, I would say this combined with the unboiled tap water top off is the biggest source of infection. The number of spores of nasties in water would far exceed the amount that could drift in through a black mold infection. I say pre-boil your top up water and use starsan or Idophor and don't rinse.

On black mold my house in Hawaii had such bad black mold problem that my wife had a never ending flu for three weeks, we only pin pointed it when she had to go on a business trip and got better. Although the mold could not be seen it was in all the A/C ducts. We had to get the military housing people to come clean the condenser out and I took all the vent covers off and sprayed 10% bleach solution through all the ducts. Through all of that I was brewing and no problems. I even had a swamp cooler that grew all sorts of yuck while on an extended business trip but the beer inside was fine.

As stated before the exposure to airborne contaminates from post boil and bottling can't even come close to the exposure from rinsing your gear after sanitizing and topping up with unboiled water.

Also you have my total respect for perseverance!

Clem

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He mentioned earlier that he switched to Star San and the no rinse approach for a batch with the same, lousy results.

It seems as though it has to be water and/or air if you have purchased new equipment, used 6 different, independent brewing senarios, and landed the same results.

The boiling all water contacting your wort technique sounds like the next best step before you start shelling out money for air and water quality testing.

If that doesn't work, grabbing whatever amount of bottled water you can haul on the bus/4 stories sounds like your final step before some serious quality testing becomes a must.

And that 3 test batch system with a control is solid!!! Good luck fixing this nightmare!

Ive had this problem. House was probably built on a sacred indian burial ground. So naturally you can expect issue like brett infections and poltergeists.

Thanks folks, I'm going for a test this weekend. I'll post what I'm up to, and with any luck in a week we should know what the hell is wrong with this place.

biestie said:

Last, and this is an oh by the way, you note that you're transferring to a secondary after less than a week. If you're going to use a secondary (which most here, and most experts would say you shouldn't) that's way too early.

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Nothing wrong with transferring as soon as fg is hit, there's still plenty of yeast in suspension to clear up. It won't clean up as much as leaving it on the cake but if you're controlling your process enough not to create too many off flavours etc then it's not a big issue.

I'm curious if your beer is actually infected, I haven't seen you post any tasting results before you dump your beer. It seems to me that dumping after a few days of fermentation is premature especially when you are not seeing signs of any infection. Knowing you use Nottingham and I have used it a few times in the past few months and the smell from fermentation has been incredibly bad. I haven't lost any of these batches to infection.

If it is infected then your water is the problem and look into doing full boils.

The OP mentioned that he used a "strong" fresh mixture of star san and sani brew. I remember reading somewhere that you should absolutely use it to recommended dilution and making it too strong could add too much of the acid in your brew (assuming you dont rinse, which you shouldn't with star san. But you have a lot of advice to sift through here and that makes it difficult, any way you could brew outside?

@BryanJ, There was also visual signs of infection on the batches that went down the drain but the smell was the clear indication. The first, which was left the longest, had what actually looked like dry yeast piled all over the top after around a week or so (Id have to check notes for accuracy here on timing). It was the rotten smell of sea food that was a clear sign of something terrible. I use Nottingham for most of my brews and the recipe I was using was one of my favorites that I've done many times. As I described in the first post, it seemed like the fermentation was going nuts for a while and then over night it went from clear (looking through the fermenter) to completely opaque with an overpowering stench.

As noted earlier I did not dump two of the kit batches but transferred them to kegs and put them under pressure to try and save them from what I suspect was infection setting in. I suspected infection was setting in because: A) the smell. While it was not as overpowering and terrible as the first batch, it was clearly present and this is a terrible stench I have not encountered in my brewing experience using the same recipe and ingredients. It also seemed to be getting stronger. B) White moldish formations developing on the top of the wort. Keep in mind this is three or so days into fermentation with a full pitch of coopers dry yeast in a 5gl batch. The rapid fermentation had subsided after day 2, smell was setting in and undesirables seemed to be forming on the surface.

For these two batches though, they didn't seem dead, just desperately in danger of going the way of the previous. As such, I kegged these two, as noted earlier, and I'm very happy to say they are on tap and not too bad. Sorry, they do not taste off or infected. They taste as good as beer kits can I suppose, and right now I'm grateful for that.

I’ve boiled enough water for a batch I plan on brewing tomorrow and its sitting in the fridge cooling.

@Edecambra, no worries, star-san is to spec

Just one extra thing, i have forced air heating/cooling system in the house and never feel comfortable to bottle/pitch yeast or open fermenter in general when its running, maybe its because i have a vent just over my working station in the basement but i feel like blowing hot air over my beer its not a good idea so i close the vent each time, just something to think about

So how is that latest batch doing, Pascal? I presume by now you've brewed, pitched, and it should be fermenting.

Sorry for the delay, new job and new city has been taking up all of my time and I only got to brewing this weekend. I started the last Brew House kit I had yesterday and it's bubbling away nicely. As advised, I boiled water the day before and put it in the fridge over night, then used it for top up water. I currently have mash water heating and will be brewing an American Wheat today, also with pre-boiled water for the top up at the end.

I had intended to conduct the little experiment outlined by day_trippr but I have not gotten to it. However, I did have an unintentional experiment I figure might be good to share. I use a britta filter for drinking water that I leave in the fridge. I left a glass with a few inches of water from the britta on the counter by the sink for a few days. After a few days on the counter the filtered tap water in the glass had grown a sort of slime on the glass and the water itself had a redish brown colour to it. I'm not sure if the photos are helpful or interesting but looking from the bottom of the glass you can see the colour of what had been clear filtered tap water.

Also, after boiling the water for top ups, there appears to be considerable sedimentation at the bottom of the pot. Enough that the bottom gallon is murky when poured out. The water is boiled so I'm not worried about contamination (from the apparent sediment) but I am wondering about off flavors. The City's water profile is as follows:

Edmonton
Calcium 48
Magnisium 14
Sodium 8
Chloride 4
Sulfate 60
Alkalinity 120
PH 7.7
Total Hardness 170

Any thoughts?

If it is not clear from my above post regarding the glass on the counter my thought on this is that I've never seen clean water in a clean glass start to grow in a few days, never mind enough to change colour. If you left it out for a few weeks then all bets are off! But a few days? It wasn't covered so it could have been anything in the air or water but I figure it is likely a sign of the issues I've been having with my beer.

The sediment is probably just precipitated carbonates in the pot.

That's kinda gross.

I know you said you didn't want to lug water up 4 flights of stairs but how about a gallon test batch of store bought water vs tap water? Maybe a starter size to test?
I've never experienced growth on a glass of water left out like that and I've lived in over 7 different places in 3 different states in the last decade.
If nothing else just to rule some things out.
-cheers

That is disgusting. I've never seen water start to grow and turn that color, and that was only a couple of days? There's something fishy in that H2O.

May be the pipes in your apartment, I've had water taste completely different from house to house in the same town.

I've never seen water grow reddish slime before either. I've had filtered tap water in quart drinking bottles sitting on my counter or in the bottle rack on my bike or in my car that still looked and tasted great when I drank them days later.

So how is that current batch progressing? Should be about done fermenting.

Your apartment water lines would be where I would start looking. To me, sediment and slime growth indicate old pipes or fixtures with possible bacterial/fungal infestation. Sucks royally, but you could approach the landlord about having your lines inspected and/or get some money knocked off the rent. Also, do NOT drink the water coming out of those lines till you know what exactly is going on.

edit: how's that latest batch coming along?

KraphtBier said:

Your apartment water lines would be where I would start looking. To me, sediment and slime growth indicate old pipes or fixtures with possible bacterial/fungal infestation. Sucks royally, but you could approach the landlord about having your lines inspected and/or get some money knocked off the rent. Also, do NOT drink the water coming out of those lines till you know what exactly is going on.

edit: how's that latest batch coming along?

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Something tells me that if the OP won't haul water up stairs on the occasional brew day he isn't going to haul water for daily drinking.

Man that is NASTY

Sent from my Galaxy S 4G using Home Brew Talk for Android

Invest in a strong filter, boil all water regardless of its use, mix Starsan to recommended ratio, don't rinse it. I would bet that would work regardless of water quality. If I was unsure of air quality, I'd use sealed fermenters, and careful sanitation of those and bottles (ie. Cover them after sanitizing)

Move to another city or country ASAP!

kh54s10 said:

Move to another city or country ASAP!

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Yeah! If you don't like 'Merican water you CAN GET OUT!!!!

so the Brew House kit is doing fine. The american wheat, not so much. Brewed the kit last saturday and the AW last sunday. All was fine until I think thursday. Came home, gave the beer a sniff and all seemed good. Watched the hockey game. We won. Go Canucks! By the end of the game the entire apartment stunk of the same smell I have described before. No visual sign of infection. I don't know why there was no smell one minute and it filled the apartment by the end of a hockey game (3 hours max). However, the batch was as exuberant as I described before. Not sure if a pic will work since it's hard to photo exuberant fermentation but one is attached for good measure.

I do have a hunch, actually more of a major miss I've realized I previously overlooked. There has been one other constant that I had not even thought of: temp. In my old house the temperature in the basement was almost perfectly constant so I watched it for a year or so and then it completely fell off my radar as a variable. I'm now in a fourth floor apartment and the temp is 24 C (75f) without turning the heat on. I believe it is still in the range for Nottingham yeast but it is definitely on the high side and MUCH higher than what I was brewing at before. I was brewing between 16-18c.

So I've been opening the patio door now and again in order to bring the overall temp of the place to around the 20c mark. For the AW brew, I've let it be for now (even though it stinks) to see if my issues may actually be at least partially due to fermentation temps. That, and I'm not dumping a batch without visual that I can post. Both the brews I have on the go are with boiled water, nothing direct from the tap. Not sure what's up with the water here but definitely investing in a tap filter as soon as possible.

bigbeergeek said:

Something tells me that if the OP won't haul water up stairs on the occasional brew day he isn't going to haul water for daily drinking.

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I usually brew about a batch a week. That's a lot of water! :cross:

75 is too hot for Nottingham. 72 should be the max and ideally below 70.

Also if the apartment is at 75, the beer could be above 80 easily.

The temp in this place has been at least 75f. Having things too hot has never been an issue before! This is why I'm thinking it is at least an issue, if not the culprit.

Build a temperature-controlled fermentation chamber in some unused corner. Lots of builds on this forum you can copy.

Pascal said:

The temp in this place has been at least 75f. Having things too hot has never been an issue before! This is why I'm thinking it is at least an issue, if not the culprit.

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Do you re-hydrate your yeast ? I would not, given this problem.

My suggestion is to throw out any suspect plastic items such as fermentor, airlocks, auto-syphons (if you use one to transfer to the fermentor)

Use star-san at regular strength and DO NOT rinse it off.

I turn my fermentor sideways (better bottle) about 1/4 filled and rotate it about 90 degrees every 10 minutes or so. I also splash the star-san all over in there to make sure all surfaces are sanitized.

My guess is it is brewing practices and not the water.

Try this (above) and if it does not work THEN it IS your water.


On another note:

I have well water with high iron content and cannot use it. It sucks to have to buy 10 gal of water every brew day, but for $10 or so, you know the beer will come out good. Cost for my average 5 gallon all grain batch is about $30 but that's still about $.54 per beer. Cheaper than going out where I pay $4-5 in my area at the clubs. Good luck !

Thanks for the thoughts Erok,
My recent issues may VERY well be brewing practice, but it is not sanitation. I seriously question the water in this place (as noted) but I'm now thinking the temp of this place is likely more my issue. Not a problem I've had before. I have a few brews on the go and have been leaving the windows open to lower the temp. Will see and will let you know how things work out. With the thermostat off and window open the temp was 19c when I got home from work. Still a bit high but better then the 24c my apartment seems to rest at.

Thanks again and happy brewing.

Also Erok, a pint around these parts is $6.75!!! I was used to $4 or $5 and didn't expect the price of beer to go up when I shifted Provinces.

I will be happy to haul water in the new year, I pick up my truck over Christmas!