Wheat spice taste - is it the wheat or the hops??

I wanted to post this here as anything in the general section that isn't controversial and argumentative seems to be buried within 24 hours time

Take Franziskaner... it's always been my favorite hefeweizen, though my last double decocted hefe might be my fav now... Franziskaner has a discernible light spice to it's taste. I've always taken it to be the wheat, why not? - rye has a similar light spiciness to it. But I've done tons of extract hefe's and now a number of AG hefe's and just don't get anywhere near that spice taste, maybe just a tad. I've tried using Weyemann Pale Wheat, Briess wheat, and Rahr White wheat and don't really get any more or less with those brands.

So I started thinking today... I know most popular hefe's don't often use flavoring hops, but is there any chance this spice is coming from a flavor hop... maybe something like Saaz? If not, how are they doing it? I typically use a ratio around 65% wheat, but I've done more and less and don't see too much a difference in this taste profile I would like to add to my own beer.

For the record, I am not trying to copy Franziskaner, I just always loved this one aspect of it and would love to add it to my own hefe's taste. Those of you that are Franzi fans know what I am talking about.


Rev.

Some of it could come from hops, but more likely the spice comes from the yeast. Franzikaner must use fermentation techniques to emphasize the spice and may have developed a house wheat yeast. Typically you can get clove/spiciness at lower fermentation temps.

slarkin712 said:

Typically you can get clove/spiciness at lower fermentation temps.

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That I know, but the thing that kills me is fresh Franziskaner very typically has a prominent banana taste right alongside the spice taste notes. Usually it's either one or the other in the front or a balance of the two, but they get both flavors quite upfront.

I think your house yeast suggestion seems a good assessment.


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

That I know, but the thing that kills me is fresh Franziskaner very typically has a prominent banana taste right alongside the spice taste notes. Usually it's either one or the other in the front or a balance of the two, but they get both flavors quite upfront.

I think your house yeast suggestion seems a good assessment.


Rev.

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Is it possible that they blend batches to get that combination? You could easily try that by splitting a batch and fermenting each half at different temperatures.

It's the yeast, there are mashing techniques that will help to emphasize the clove spicyness, then fermentation temps can get you the banana flavors you seek.

In Brewing Classic Styles, the recommendation is to do primary at 62. In addition to having the correct starter size, Z claims this temp yields the flavor profile of what the classic heff is supposed to be.

@RM-MN - That certainly is a good suggestion, I'm guessing also doing part of the fermentation cool and then ramping it up halfway through should also do the trick?

@wyzazz - I've read about that, though I've also read some experiments that tested with and without the clove enhancing mash step and the results seem inconclusive with a number of people saying they didn't see any difference. I'll say though I've never really fermented my hefe's lower than 66, I think one time I might've hit 64 but I can't recall. I think in the near future I will need to do one fermented warm and one cool so I can compare the difference.

Thanks for the feedback guys!


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

@wyzazz - I've read about that, though I've also read some experiments that tested with and without the clove enhancing mash step and the results seem inconclusive with a number of people saying they didn't see any difference. I'll say though I've never really fermented my hefe's lower than 66, I think one time I might've hit 64 but I can't recall. I think in the near future I will need to do one fermented warm and one cool so I can compare the difference.

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Trying one cool for clove and one warm for banana might be the best way to get exactly what you want by blending. I'm a banana man myself so I do mine warm.

wyzazz said:

I'm a banana man myself so I do mine warm.

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Me too, which is why I usually ferment mine at 68 or so. But it would be killer to get both those tastes prominently, gonna have to try lots of experiments coming up soon.


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

@RM-MN - That certainly is a good suggestion, I'm guessing also doing part of the fermentation cool and then ramping it up halfway through should also do the trick?

@wyzazz - I've read about that, though I've also read some experiments that tested with and without the clove enhancing mash step and the results seem inconclusive with a number of people saying they didn't see any difference. I'll say though I've never really fermented my hefe's lower than 66, I think one time I might've hit 64 but I can't recall. I think in the near future I will need to do one fermented warm and one cool so I can compare the difference.

Thanks for the feedback guys!


Rev.

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Maybe not. From what I've read the initial couple days of fermentation sets the flavor and after that it doesn't matter much what the temperature is as long as it is in the yeast's preferred range. Don't chill it so much you make it go dormant or warm it so much it dies from heat exhaustion. That's why I suggested a split batch that is combined at kegging or bottling time. Just my idea.