Whirlpooling with bottom drain + false bottom vs. side drain + diptube

Question...

I'm getting ready to start cutting/drilling/soldering my (soon to be) e-keggles soon. I was originally planning on installing bottom drains in all of them. I recently started thinking of adding a whirlpool tube to my BK and now it's got me questioning the whole bottom drain idea. Obviously I cant have it whirlpooling and forming a big'ole pile of stuff right on top of the drain. Would a false bottom work for this...or should I just forget the bottom drains and just go from the side and make up some dip tubes?

I put my bottom drain at the edge. If you're using a keg, you can do what the breweries do and have a tangential inlet for whirlpooling, and a drain that is slightly above the point where the hop cone forms. You could use a keg tool and solder in one of THESE to the very bottom of the kettle about halfway up the "bowl"...about 3 inches from the center....the drain would go slightly right, then down...that way you can still run your plumbing right through the tabletop with no wierd angles.

Keep in mind, your elements may interfere with the whirlpool anyway. I would stick with the bottom drain; there will be no siphon needed, almost zero dead space in the kettle, and it makes priming your pump easier because gravity just "slams" the water right into the pump head, forcing air bubbles out and getting a great prime every time.

It's also important to know what kind of chiller you'll be using...

Thats what I was thinking....I might just skip the whirlpool all together.

I have a IC that I use in my small kettle now. I got a great deal on a Therminator at my local brew shop since it was sitting on a shelf for over a year and he just wanted to get rid of it. I could build a DIY counter flow...I'm still up in the air on this stage of my future brewing process.

What I'm doing right now is (still) mapping out the holes I'm going to do to on my keggles and am wanting to do them all at one time. I have a "keg tool" and will be going the drill/dimple/solder route with everything. I am wanting to SS hard plumb everything, but looking at the price of 1/2" pipe to tube compression fitting's and the such....it becomes big $$$$ quickly! That said, I'm thinking of just doing it in phases and starting with the 3 new keggles, 2 pumps, and a brewtroller. Phase 2 will probably be volume sensing and phase 3 being a bazillion motorized valves and hard plumbing it all. At least thats what I'm thinking.

Yup...phases are the way to go. No way could most of us afford it otherwise...but you also get to savor the build and improve your design over time as you research things. That's my favorite part! DON'T drill or cut ANYTHING until you're certain. I reccomend using Google Sketchup....it takes a bit of learning, but it's a great way to see how things will fit together. And you can mock up all sorts of cool design concepts.

The keg tool and soldering are a great way to go. Be sure to get liquid stay-brite flux and lead free plumbing solder. Follow the thread exactly and you'll get great results.

About the chiller....you could sell the therminator if you're not sure....if you're hell bent on a whirlpool, you could make a nice heatstick (search: heatstick of doom) and use the IC. Then, when everything is chilled, just pull all the gear out and whirlpool with a spoon or use a pump. Give it a few minutes, and you should have a nice trub cone settling in the bowl along with the cold break. You can also add more hops at this point...it's what the breweries do. If you set your drain high enough, you should only run off clear wort into the fermenter.

Lots of options....

ScubaSteve said:

Yup...phases are the way to go. No way could most of us afford it otherwise...but you also get to savor the build and improve your design over time as you research things. That's my favorite part! DON'T drill or cut ANYTHING until you're certain.

Click to expand...

Understood...I'm just eager to get this thing going. I'm upgrading my electrical service to the garage (THNX SPARKY!) and got the wiring at lunch today. I guess I could work on the bazillion other things that need to be done in the mean time ;-)

ScubaSteve said:

I reccomend using Google Sketchup....it takes a bit of learning, but it's a great way to see how things will fit together. And you can mock up all sorts of cool design concepts.

Click to expand...

I have/use Pro-E here at work. I've been wanting to draw something up during my lunch breaks....but surfing this site takes up all of that time. I dont have my son this weekend...maybe I'll try to come in and draw some things up.

ScubaSteve said:

The keg tool and soldering are a great way to go. Be sure to get liquid stay-brite flux and lead free plumbing solder. Follow the thread exactly and you'll get great results.

Click to expand...

I figured I would save the keg tops after I cut them off. All of the harware we have here at work is stainless....so I'll bring a handfull of washers home and work on my technique.

ScubaSteve said:

Lots of options....

Click to expand...

UGH....TOO MANY!!!! Thank you for your input ScubaSteve!

If you need any 3d models let me know, I have modeled a large portion of my system. All files are in solidworks but I could export to .step or other.

ScubaSteve said:

I put my bottom drain at the edge. If you're using a keg, you can do what the breweries do and have a tangential inlet for whirlpooling, and a drain that is slightly above the point where the hop cone forms. You could use a keg tool and solder in one of THESE to the very bottom of the kettle about halfway up the "bowl"...about 3 inches from the center....the drain would go slightly right, then down...that way you can still run your plumbing right through the tabletop with no wierd angles.

Keep in mind, your elements may interfere with the whirlpool anyway. I would stick with the bottom drain; there will be no siphon needed, almost zero dead space in the kettle, and it makes priming your pump easier because gravity just "slams" the water right into the pump head, forcing air bubbles out and getting a great prime every time.

Click to expand...

What do you do to keep out pellet hop particles? I was initially planning to go with a centered bottom drain on my brew kettle as well, but lately I have been thinking about a bottom drain that is up off the center as you describe. My BK will have a RIPP element in it which most likely will make WP ineffective. Maybe use a false bottom like device? Or maybe the WP with the pickup off the center might still work well enough...

I would love to check out your models! What version of SolidWorks do you use?

TheFlyingBeer said:

If you need any 3d models let me know, I have modeled a large portion of my system. All files are in solidworks but I could export to .step or other.

Click to expand...

KevinP said:

I would love to check out your models! What version of SolidWorks do you use?

Click to expand...

I have SW2010. Hopefully tonight I will be posting the start of my build thread, it will give you an idea of the models I have made. Some are downloaded, some downloaded then modified, others are built from scratch. I have sanke kegs, ball-lock kegs, SSRs, elements, switches, etc.

TheFlyingBeer said:

If you need any 3d models let me know, I have modeled a large portion of my system. All files are in solidworks but I could export to .step or other.

Click to expand...

That would be VERY much appreciated! We are using Wild Fire 4 but will be upgrading to 5 next month.

kjackbrown said:

That would be VERY much appreciated! We are using Wild Fire 4 but will be upgrading to 5 next month.

Click to expand...

Anything you are interested in seeing? My collection is slowly growing... the parts aren't photo carbon copies but have enough resolution/accuracy to be worth while for this purpose.

Below is a sample of one of my model folders, I might be as addicted to 3D CAD as brewing equipment.

Lol...you have been busy!

TheFlyingBeer said:

What do you do to keep out pellet hop particles? I was initially planning to go with a centered bottom drain on my brew kettle as well, but lately I have been thinking about a bottom drain that is up off the center as you describe. My BK will have a RIPP element in it which most likely will make WP ineffective. Maybe use a false bottom like device? Or maybe the WP with the pickup off the center might still work well enough...

Click to expand...

My bottom drain is about 1" in a flat bottom kettle and is at the edge. I'm using a screen lined basket where I let the hops free-float, and then the drain has a perfed ss cover. From there, it goes to a hopback which is just stuffed with SS scrubbies if I'm not using whole hops in there. There's also a fine screened gasket right before my plate chiller. There's no single level of filtration you can do that won't get clogged. So you need a couple of layers. Of course, if I didn't use a plate chiller, all of this would be unnecessary. Right now, it seems to work well and it chills FAST. I chilled approx 10 gallons of wort to 60F in about 5 mins. Having a powerful pump helps bigtime.

See the "Unibrew 5500" in my sig....towards the end, I posted a BUNCH of videos of everything in use.

I'll check it out...thnx!

TheFlyingBeer said:

My BK will have a RIPP element in it which most likely will make WP ineffective. Maybe use a false bottom like device? Or maybe the WP with the pickup off the center might still work well enough...

Click to expand...

I have the same concerns for my RIPP element and BK. I plan to mount the heater a little higher than otherwise necessary so that it will clear the trub cone. It will interfere some with the whirlpool say those who have tried it, but it is not a show stopper. I will use a 3/8" s.s. whirlpool fitting from BargainFittings close to the wall to get the WP going, then I'll use the same fitting to drain wort after WP.

There is also a temp probe and maybe a float switch in there. It will look something like this:

i'm diggin the float switch!

I used a copper ring made from 1/2" copper tube that rides on the edge of the dished portion of the keggle. I cut slits in the bottom of it, and it works just like the one in my mash tun. it picks up very little trub as most of it settles out into center of the dished portion, and I dont whirlpool. I do use the PVC/paint diaper bag/hop stopper though, so there is less residue in the keggle.

Lots of parts! You've spent some time on this stuff! Do you think your assemblies would open with 07?

TheFlyingBeer said:

Anything you are interested in seeing? My collection is slowly growing... the parts aren't photo carbon copies but have enough resolution/accuracy to be worth while for this purpose.

Below is a sample of one of my model folders, I might be as addicted to 3D CAD as brewing equipment.

Click to expand...

KevinP said:

Lots of parts! You've spent some time on this stuff! Do you think your assemblies would open with 07?

Click to expand...

I don't think you can open my .slprt or .sldasm with 2007, they generally aren't backwards compatible. I can save my files as .step or .igs and you should be able to import the solid bodies just fine. If you have feature detection most features should show up as I don't generally use any special surfaces or such.

Try any of these:
SS Float switch assembly (similar or the same type as the one posted by Quaffer)

http://sites.google.com/site/theflyingbeer/SSFloatSwitch.zip

Inside the .zip there are the two .slprt files that make the .sldasm. I also have included the two parts as .igs. Have a try and let me know.

The parts and assembly don't open. I kind of figured they wouldn't but thanks for trying.
The .igs files open but gives no insight to how you built the parts.
I would love to see how you created some of those parts. The curvy heater elements look really cool! How much detail is in those CAT5 sockets?

Items like the CAT5 sockets are readily available online so I usually don't build em from scratch. Try http://www.3dcontentcentral.com/

Tons of user and manufacturer made parts available there. It is becoming easier and easier to find specific parts modeled in 3D, connectors and similar items are general available right from the manufacturer like tyco, molex, or 3M.

To make the curvy element I used the "sweep" feature and drew a curvy line then paired it with a sketch of a circle that is the diameter of the element.

I am leaning towards installing the bottom drain on my BK off center towards the upper part of the domed keg bottom. This will allow me to whirlpool in the kettle before draining.

I chose a different element for my HLT so I had an extra 5500W I decided to bend a bit. A little ugly but the resistance measured on the terminals is still the same and the resistance from a terminal to the sheathing is still too high for my DMM to read.



Here it is installed in one of my kegs (no drain installed yet).



Hopefully with the element being out of the center of the keg it will allow enough of a whirlpool to be effective against hop particles and hotbreak. Might put some kind of additional filter/screen over the drain.

Interesting, I like the bent element. Any tricks for bending so it did not snap? I plan on using a hop spider to keep the gunk out.

milldoggy said:

Interesting, I like the bent element. Any tricks for bending so it did not snap? I plan on using a hop spider to keep the gunk out.

Click to expand...

Just went nice and slowly with even force. Found that stepping on the element lifted between two 2x4's works well. The really sharp bends at the ends of the element are not easily workable. My hope is with the ULWD element that the bending shouldn't shorten its lifespan too greatly.

Huh...it really opens up the center of the keggle doesnt it. Looks to me like it just might work. As far as shoretning the life...I guess that depends on what is going on inside the element. Other than pics here of elements burnt up and blobs of metal everywhere...I'm not sure what is inside one. I would think that as long as there is nothing in there that can get some sort of kink in it, you would be okay. In looking at your pic....I dont see no kinks (on the outside at least). Toss some water in that thing...plug'er in...and see how it goes. As always keep us posted!

I really wish we could source elements like the Speidel's Braumeister uses. It's a circular element that runs right along the bottom wall of the kettle. I've seen spa elements, but nothing like this. You could use an IC, basket, and even whirlpool. Maybe it's something to be sourced from Europe?

There are plenty of manufacturers I have found to make heating elements in various shapes and sizes but the cost is through the roof, especially if you only want one or two. I am sure if you wanted to make 1000 they would be more reasonable. Hard to fight the market factors when there are 50 bajillion hot water heaters out there.

Rather than custom-made, there has to be a source for that style element, right?

Is it completely out of the question to heat up the element and then bend it? And no I don't mean power it up and bend it! What if you were to hit it with a torch and slowly mold it around a using a hammer or something. These elements are fairly cheap so it might be worth a try.

I didn't need any heat to bend mine, just took it nice and easy. They are easier to bend than hollow tubing as the electric insulating powder inside helps to prevent kinking. I am sure if you used a form of some kind the end result could be a lot cleaner than mine. This is kind of a proof of concept so to speak.

When you wire it up, let us know. I might try it for how cheap they are. My only problem may be getting it into the keggle. I have a welded half coupler with a two gang box to protect the wiring. You think I would be able to bend it once it is installed?

milldoggy said:

When you wire it up, let us know. I might try it for how cheap they are. My only problem may be getting it into the keggle. I have a welded half coupler with a two gang box to protect the wiring. You think I would be able to bend it once it is installed?

Click to expand...

I had to go through a couple of iterations on the bending to get it to slide into my keg. I am using a locknut attached to a triclamp ferrule that mates with a triclamp ferrule on the keg so I don't have too much restriction and I don't need to screw it in. If you are screwing the element into the keg it may be more difficult.

It is going to be a while until I wire this one up. Soon I am going on travel for a month or more so my build will be on hold until I return.

kjackbrown said:

Understood...I'm just eager to get this thing going. I'm upgrading my electrical service to the garage (THNX SPARKY!) and got the wiring at lunch today.

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kjackbrown, I was thinking about your upgrade to the electrical. Pulling that wire through the existing conduit may be a biiiitch. So, pick up some wire lube and apply it as you pull the wire through. The cheap method is to use dish soap. But, if you apply it to the wires as you pull through the conduit, it goes easier. And, have two people do the work (one feeds, the other pulls). Let me know how it works out!!

Right on dude...I'll give thay a try! I'm hoping to tackle this on Saturday (weather permitting) so I'll let you know.

That's some good advice. Pulling wire sucks. Especially the big stuff.

Luckily I dont need to go that far!

We'll be pulling 200' of 500mcm next week. Anyone want to help? :cross:
It's for Scuba Steve's new 400amp build.

TheFlyingBeer said:

Just went nice and slowly with even force. Found that stepping on the element lifted between two 2x4's works well. The really sharp bends at the ends of the element are not easily workable. My hope is with the ULWD element that the bending shouldn't shorten its lifespan too greatly.

Click to expand...

@TheFlyingBeer: How is that element holding up?

ScubaSteve said:

Rather than custom-made, there has to be a source for that style element, right?

Click to expand...

Looks like there is:


Or you can get one of these:


But you should get this... ... :rockin: