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imaguitargod
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The OG was 1.119 and I oxygenated the hell out of the beer.
It's Barleywine time again and I have some yeast questions
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The OG was 1.119 and I oxygenated the hell out of the beer.
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imaguitargod
Well-Known Member
Oh! Sorry. I sloshed it, don't have an air stone yet (I do have an aquarium pump...maybe I shoyuld start working on that....). The ferm temp was 66F.
saccharomyces said - "Oxygenate it with an O2 stone at pitching and 12 hours after pitching (I would not even attempt a 1.120 beer without an O2 stone, sorry). Keep fermentation temperature in check. That's about it...."
Sloshing will get you about 8ppm of dissolved O2. I'm guessing that is the limiting factor. I've done some pretty big beers, and some HUGE meads OK, but I have an o2 tank and an airstone. My LHBS owner suggests sloshing and them pouring from the fermenter into a second sanitized container 12-24 hours later if you don't have an O2 rig - he calls it "dropping".
I'd suggest giving it a mighty swirl as a minimum, and I'd think about dropping it into a second fermentor to break up the CO2 and maybe add a little oxy. (Think transfer to secondary here, but maybe a little more "aggressively" than through a racking cane.) I know you don't want to oxidize your beer, but there's enough yeast there that it should suck the O2 out pretty fast.
There's LOTS of guys WAAAYYY more experienced than me here - maybe one of them can offer a second opinion.
Sloshing will get you about 8ppm of dissolved O2. I'm guessing that is the limiting factor. I've done some pretty big beers, and some HUGE meads OK, but I have an o2 tank and an airstone. My LHBS owner suggests sloshing and them pouring from the fermenter into a second sanitized container 12-24 hours later if you don't have an O2 rig - he calls it "dropping".
I'd suggest giving it a mighty swirl as a minimum, and I'd think about dropping it into a second fermentor to break up the CO2 and maybe add a little oxy. (Think transfer to secondary here, but maybe a little more "aggressively" than through a racking cane.) I know you don't want to oxidize your beer, but there's enough yeast there that it should suck the O2 out pretty fast.
There's LOTS of guys WAAAYYY more experienced than me here - maybe one of them can offer a second opinion.
MeetsCriteria
Well-Known Member
I should have mentioned, when I pumped my wort to the fermenter from the boiler, I had a siphon sprayer on the end of my tubing, which likely also helps I am sure. It's something like 2.99 at northernbrewer, probably the same at other places. Pure oxygen is likely the gold standard, but if I were going to spend my $$ on one side of the "proper attenuation" coin, it'd be on the pitching enough yeast / temp control side. Pure O2 aeration is great I am sure, but, as of yet, I have never had a beer not fully attenuate using the aquarium pump / siphon sprayer combo.
+1
More O2 won't compensate for too low a pitch rate. The OP SHOULD have a decent "starter" in his half converted wort now - what tricks are there to help him get completed attenuation.
FYI - there was an article about this topic in July/Aug BYO -
http://byo.com/component/resource/article/1950-attenuation-advanced-brewing
If you can't get it to attenuate as far as you want you should repitch. I would suggest making a starter of at least a gallon and it should be pitched at high kraeusen. You may not want to dump a gallon of starter wort into your barleywine so you could let the 4l starter ferment out, refrigerate for a day or two, decant off the wort, add 0.5-1l of new starter wort, let that reach high kraeusen, and then pitch. It is important not to refrigerate too early so the yeasties have a chance to build up their glycogen reserves, and it is even more important to pitch at high kraeusen, otherwise the yeast will likely just flocculate and not help your attenuation.
leoglenwood
Well-Known Member
I brewed Old Monster - but ruined it by bottling with a fresh yeast Saf-04 (although I had it in secondary for two months) and 5 oz priming sugar.
I would bottle with 1/2 cup corn sugar and not re-yeast.
FYI: I brewed a pale ale and put Old Monster on the cake with 02 stone; the 02 stone has made the most difference in my FGs of any tweaking in my process so I highly recommend you do it; I got it for fairly cheap from Williams brewing (online) and then you get the $10 disposable 02 tanks.
last: I had a better experience brewing barleywine with British yeast; the White Labs 007 yeast did a better job than the 001 for me
I would bottle with 1/2 cup corn sugar and not re-yeast.
FYI: I brewed a pale ale and put Old Monster on the cake with 02 stone; the 02 stone has made the most difference in my FGs of any tweaking in my process so I highly recommend you do it; I got it for fairly cheap from Williams brewing (online) and then you get the $10 disposable 02 tanks.
last: I had a better experience brewing barleywine with British yeast; the White Labs 007 yeast did a better job than the 001 for me
Be careful, and I disagree from experience. If you use a yeast cake from a previous beer (which I recommend), I would not aerate too much. I added oxygen to a big barleywine and had a blow off of such epic proportions... lost almost HALF of it out the blow off tube. Yes, that is true.
MeetsCriteria
Well-Known Member
How did you ruin it? Bottle bombs? Wrong yeast for style? I don't understand...
I would be interested in this answer as well. I have a barleywine that hasn't carbed at all since being bottled in August. It sat in primary for 5 weeks. (I should note that it took first place at my local clubs barleywine contest recently! Totally flat)
I plan on opeing the bottles, adding yeast, and rebottling over the holidays. Please comment. Thanks.
psychobrawler
Well-Known Member
I'm in a similar situation with a RIS right now. 1.110 OG and down to 1.030 after 10 days. It's close, but I'd like to push it down a little further and I'm worried about carbonation. I'm planning on giving it another week before I take another reading, but in the meantime I'm kind of planning my "what ifs." I used WL0004 - Irish Ale with a 1 Liter starter (I know, too small) and it took off hard enough that I lost nearly a gallon out of the blow off tube in the first 48 hours. I did not use a stone, but aerated with shaking every couple of hours for 3 or 4 sessions, and I resuspended the yeast with some pretty vigorous shaking after 4 days and again after 8. I was considering a wine yeast to finish, but I'm close enough to my target of 1.020 that I think it's overkill now. It is very sweet though, and I'd like to push it a little further. Is there any benefit to trying a yeast energizer/nutrient and re-oxygenating with a stone? Would there be any benefit to growing up a new starter and repitching with the SG this close to target? Or am I best to just call it good and accept that I've made a very sweet RIS?...
Not trying to hijack the thread, just thought the situation is related enough to the OPs that any responses may be relavent.
Thanks.
Not trying to hijack the thread, just thought the situation is related enough to the OPs that any responses may be relavent.
Thanks.
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imaguitargod
Well-Known Member
No worries, mate!
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imaguitargod
Well-Known Member
Ok, I check my gravity again today after roushing the fermentor last Friday and my gravity is 1.046 (as apposed to 1.053 which was 4 days ago). There's a TON of yeast in suspension...could that be adding a bunch of gravity points?
I'm thinking about just sloshing it around for about 10 seconds to introduce more O2. If by Saturday it isn't down to 1.030, I'm pitching Wine Yeast.
I'm thinking about just sloshing it around for about 10 seconds to introduce more O2. If by Saturday it isn't down to 1.030, I'm pitching Wine Yeast.
remilard
Well-Known Member
WLP009 is not a distiller's yeast, it is the Thomas Hardy strain.
maskednegator
Well-Known Member
Particles in suspension don't add to SG, only particles in solution will have any effect.
Adding yeast nutrient won't make a difference at this point, and oxygenation will most likely just give you oxidized beer. Your best bet, if the sweetness bothers you that much, is to repitch like I mentioned earlier.
psychobrawler
Well-Known Member
I think you're probably right. I'm going to give it another week or so like I said and check it again. I'm not seeing any signs of active fermentation any more, but I'm sure it would be pretty slow by now regardless.
If I haven't moved down any further in another week I'll decide whether to accept the sweetness or start growing up a good culture to repitch. I'm planning on aging in a secondary on some oak chips and bourbon, so I'm thinking the sweet taste will play OK with that if that's what happens. I'm more concerned with bottle conditioning at this point.
psychobrawler
Well-Known Member
It's obviously going very slow, but if you're measuring a drop from read to read then some activity is still happening. Wouldn't it be better to wait until you have consecutive readings with no change before repitching? From my reading of the discussions around high gravity brews, it doesn't sound that uncommon for them to take several weeks to ferment out. It may take some extra patience, but as long as the gravity keeps dropping I'd probably restrain from introducing a different yeast than what you've got working.
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imaguitargod
Well-Known Member
Hmm...didn't realise they go this slow at the end......you have a good point. I will wait....
MeetsCriteria
Well-Known Member
Well, all this talk about folks' high gravity beers not self carb'ing has me slightly concerned. Sort of surprised by that. Enough so that I went and roused the yeast in all my bottles (only been a week) of Old Monster.
I live right around the corner from Alesmith (I know, poor me). I'll have to ask them how they get consistent results with regards to bottle conditioning. They bottle condition ALL of their beers. This includes Speedway stout, which is over 12% ABV, among others. Their Wee Heavy, and Old Numbskull (Barleywine) are also > 10% ABV. I know they use WLP001 for most beers. Peter Zien told me that there is a run of Speedway from 2004 that they are STILL waiting on becoming fully carb'd. Apparently it's coming along, albeit VERY slowly. Apparently they changed something because that's not been a big issue for them, otherwise, as far as I know.
All their beers sit on pallets (think something like roughly 6-8 cubic feet of 22 oz bombers). They all sit in the warehouse, and they periodically taste to see when the batch is ready for release.
They don't use heating in the warehouse, so it gets into the 50s in there in the winter. Yet, they still seem to be able to get it to happen. That's why I'm confused by all the issues people are having.
That said, I know Lost Abbey has had some inconsistency problems with bottle conditioning, and are building a "warm room" to help combat the issue.
Next time I'm at Alesmith, I'll as one of the guys there how they ensure appropriate bottle conditioning consistently. They are very open regarding processes, etc.
Cheers,
Mike
I live right around the corner from Alesmith (I know, poor me). I'll have to ask them how they get consistent results with regards to bottle conditioning. They bottle condition ALL of their beers. This includes Speedway stout, which is over 12% ABV, among others. Their Wee Heavy, and Old Numbskull (Barleywine) are also > 10% ABV. I know they use WLP001 for most beers. Peter Zien told me that there is a run of Speedway from 2004 that they are STILL waiting on becoming fully carb'd. Apparently it's coming along, albeit VERY slowly. Apparently they changed something because that's not been a big issue for them, otherwise, as far as I know.
All their beers sit on pallets (think something like roughly 6-8 cubic feet of 22 oz bombers). They all sit in the warehouse, and they periodically taste to see when the batch is ready for release.
They don't use heating in the warehouse, so it gets into the 50s in there in the winter. Yet, they still seem to be able to get it to happen. That's why I'm confused by all the issues people are having.
That said, I know Lost Abbey has had some inconsistency problems with bottle conditioning, and are building a "warm room" to help combat the issue.
Next time I'm at Alesmith, I'll as one of the guys there how they ensure appropriate bottle conditioning consistently. They are very open regarding processes, etc.
Cheers,
Mike
MeetsCriteria
Well-Known Member
Good call. Clearly your beer isn't finished attenuating. If you haven't read Ray Daniel's Book on "Designing Great Beers", Ray talks about different yeasts used for Barleywine.
One interesting fact he reports after performing regression analysis on all second round NHC Barleywines with regards to yeasts used, is that despite anecdotal evidence of Champagne yeast being more highly attenuating / alcohol tolerant than typical ale yeasts for style, this didn't actually bear out to be true at least in the winning examples of the style. In fact, it turns out, in the examples sited, Champagne yeast actually attenuated slightly less than many ale yeasts. There is some evidence that it can cause off flavors as well (though apparently not an issue in the examples advancing to the second round).
It also sounds like that for higher ABV beers, it is expected for yeast to attenuate less than it would for the same yeast in a lower gravity beer. Apparently anything greater than 75% is great.
Mine attenuated to 83% using WLP001 (mashed 90 min at 149 deg F). I was amazed. Of course, the 1L of slurry probably didn't hurt...
Ok, I'll jump in here with my high gravity experiences. I brewed up the 9-9-9 Barleywine in September 08. It was my first all grain batch and somehow my efficiency was through the roof. Instead of 1.120 OG, I was at something above 1.165 (the end of my hydrometer's scale). I pitched onto a cake of Cry Havoc from a basic pale ale (all 2 row with a 1/2# of C60). I didn't have an O2 stone so I shook the hell out of my fermenter for 15 minutes. I can recommend a great work-out program based on brewing if anyone's interested. 
After a month I was down to only 1.080 and it slowly dropped to 1.050 over the next 2 months and wouldn't go any further.
At this point I made up a 1 gallon starter of WLP099 and pitched that. It promptly sank to the bottom of the fermenter and laughed at me. Every day for 2 weeks I shook the fermenter for at least 10 minutes to get the yeast off it's (their?) lazy ass. Verrrrrrrry slowly (over another 3 months) the gravity dropped and eventually bottomed out at 1.035. That's 17.3% ABV. 
If I had started with the -099 and actually followed all the recommended steps I imagine I might have gotten 20%. All told it took nearly 6 months to get to my FG. I didn't bother trying to bottle condition that beast. I borrowed a keg and force carbonated and BMBF'd it.
Patience is a virtue, especially with high gravity beers. It's been 10 months since I bottled (nearly 16 since brew day) and it's just now starting to mellow and blend well.
Terje
After a month I was down to only 1.080 and it slowly dropped to 1.050 over the next 2 months and wouldn't go any further. At this point I made up a 1 gallon starter of WLP099 and pitched that. It promptly sank to the bottom of the fermenter and laughed at me.
Every day for 2 weeks I shook the fermenter for at least 10 minutes to get the yeast off it's (their?) lazy ass. Verrrrrrrry slowly (over another 3 months) the gravity dropped and eventually bottomed out at 1.035. That's 17.3% ABV. If I had started with the -099 and actually followed all the recommended steps I imagine I might have gotten 20%. All told it took nearly 6 months to get to my FG. I didn't bother trying to bottle condition that beast. I borrowed a keg and force carbonated and BMBF'd it. Patience is a virtue, especially with high gravity beers. It's been 10 months since I bottled (nearly 16 since brew day) and it's just now starting to mellow and blend well.
Terje
MeetsCriteria
Well-Known Member
That's quite a story! I can't imagine 1.165 wort!
Granted, my wort was "only" 1.116. But it attenuated to 1.019 on only 5 weeks, and likely less than that. The fact that I pitched on essentially a "double" yeast cake...from 8.5 gallons of 1.054 pale ale, subseqently used to ferment 6 gal of 1.066 porter, probably didn't hurt things. That yeast was then drained off the porter after only 2 weeks and used for the BW.
Oh, here's another thing I forgot to mention regarding Alesmith:
Peter suggested that overpitching yeast is essentially an urban legend. He said that they pitch 10X the recommended amount. He said that you are MUCH more likely to run in to problems UNDER pitching vs. OVER pitching. He noted that most homebrewers significanly underpitch. Believe it or not, they crash cool their IPA after only 6 days, which is hard to believe...but apparently true. In other words, it's fully attenuated in less than a week!
His thought was that you bypass time where yeast spend replicating. According to him, since there is so much yeast in solution, it goes essentially straight to fermentation. As such, I'm more convinced that it is virtually impossible for a homebrewer to overpitch. It's super easy to underpitch though...
Just random thoughts...
Granted, my wort was "only" 1.116. But it attenuated to 1.019 on only 5 weeks, and likely less than that. The fact that I pitched on essentially a "double" yeast cake...from 8.5 gallons of 1.054 pale ale, subseqently used to ferment 6 gal of 1.066 porter, probably didn't hurt things. That yeast was then drained off the porter after only 2 weeks and used for the BW.
Oh, here's another thing I forgot to mention regarding Alesmith:
Peter suggested that overpitching yeast is essentially an urban legend. He said that they pitch 10X the recommended amount. He said that you are MUCH more likely to run in to problems UNDER pitching vs. OVER pitching. He noted that most homebrewers significanly underpitch. Believe it or not, they crash cool their IPA after only 6 days, which is hard to believe...but apparently true. In other words, it's fully attenuated in less than a week!
His thought was that you bypass time where yeast spend replicating. According to him, since there is so much yeast in solution, it goes essentially straight to fermentation. As such, I'm more convinced that it is virtually impossible for a homebrewer to overpitch. It's super easy to underpitch though...
Just random thoughts...
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imaguitargod
Well-Known Member
Just an update in case anyone's still reading this. I took a reading last week and it was at 1.034. This week it's at 1.030. Those yeasts are slowing down considerably, but still are eating away. The sample I took was SATURATED with yeasties flowating about. I ended up raising the temp about two weeks ago to around 64/65F and every day I rock the fermentor just slightly.
psychobrawler
Well-Known Member
Well I did my barleywine on Sunday (OG 1.104) and pitched it on to a WL007 cake from an English Brown ale. It was fermenting within 2 hours and blowing off within 4. I blew off nearly a gallon of beer in the first 24 hours (5.5 gal in a 6.5 carboy w/ 1" blow off tube.) Second time I've lost that much during blow off of a high grav beer. Kind of a bummer. Anyway, by last night it appeared to stop cold and start to clear. I'll check this weekend, but I'm skeptical that I reached my target FG in 48 hours - even with that crazy fermentation. Awesome if it did though.
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imaguitargod
Well-Known Member
Cleaning within 38 hours....hmmmmm...me thinks there's a problem. Be sure to report back with your gravity readings!
psychobrawler
Well-Known Member
Well on day 3 it looked clear and I took a reading and was down to 1.028! I couldn't detect any weird off flavors either, but that's hard to say with the alcohol taste being so green still. I'm actually within the range of my target, and hopefully with a couple of weeks to let those yeasties clean up I'll get down around 1.020. This was my first time pitching onto a full cake and I'll definitely be repeating the process with my high gravity beers in the future.
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imaguitargod
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WOW! Very cool! That's an amazing fermentation timeline. Great job!
perrypainter
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So, are you saying that you just cool the wort all the way down in the kettle and add it straight to the used primary carboy? My huge problem is not being able to cool the wort fast enough.
when you say pitch on the cake do you mean you siphon the pale ale out the bucket and drain the kettle right into the bucket the pale ale came out of?
Yes, that's correct. Basic Brewing Video has a video on it, if you want to see it done.
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