I think I FAILED! (Lager problems)

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Aleforge

Aleforge

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So I brewed up my first lager using a kit from Austin Homebrew supply. I followe their directions and also skimmed the wiki to get pointers on the cooling process. I let the carboy sit for 24 hours at 65 degrees to help jump start fermentation. After 24 hours I noticed no activity. So I read on the directions if this happens to remove the stopper and stir the hell out of the wort to help aerate it. Then I put it in the deep freezer with the therm set up to 60 so I could give it a few more hours to kick start.

I checked on it this morning (after about a total of 34 hours at 60-65 degrees) and still noticed no real activity. However the top of the wort had dots all over it. They each are about the size of a button. I was rushing out the door and didn't get a good look at it but it instantly made me thing it had "mold" on the top!

So pretty much no activity, mold like substance on top.... Is this batch ruined? Im not fimilar with Lager yeast so I dont know how it starts out, if it ends up like Ale and needs a blow off or how vigorous the fermenting churns?

What do I do now? I am super anal about cleaning and sanatizing, I guess you can just have bad luck, but damn I couldn't clean and be any more careful!


Thanks guys!
 
Those dots are most likely the first CO2 bubbles reaching the top of your beer. Sounds like the beginning of krausen.:mug:
 
Bernie Brewer said:
Those dots are most likely the first CO2 bubbles reaching the top of your beer. Sounds like the beginning of krausen.:mug:
Click to expand...

They are fairly large (button sized) and spaced apart in a weird fashion. I guess before with Ales it really took off and by the time I checked it was full of Krausen. Do Lagers even at the initial warmer temp still take longer to start?

I will take a picture of it when I get home tonight and post.


Thanks for the responses! :mug:
 
Yes, ales tend to move along quicker than lagers. When I make lagers, I make a great big starter and pitch way more yeast. They also are bottom fermenting so sometimes there's alot going on in there you can't see!

Mrmalty's website has a pitching calculator to help you determine how much yeast to pitch. I think it would be interesting reading in a case like this.

I think the others are right, and you've got fermentation happening now. :rockin:
 
These people are very knowledgeable. I've only done two lagers with mixed results but on both, it took much longer for the visible signs of fermentation/krausen to form. It does look like a bit like mold when it first starts. When you get home, there will be no doubt that it is fermenting because those buttons will now cover the entire surface.

Good luck,
Al
 
YooperBrew said:
Yes, ales tend to move along quicker than lagers. When I make lagers, I make a great big starter and pitch way more yeast. They also are bottom fermenting so sometimes there's alot going on in there you can't see!

Mrmalty's website has a pitching calculator to help you determine how much yeast to pitch. I think it would be interesting reading in a case like this.

I think the others are right, and you've got fermentation happening now. :rockin:
Click to expand...


The Austin Homebrew kit came with a vail of yeast,

Whitelabs American Lager - WLP840

And Brewvint Yeast Nutrient.


I should of made a starter I am sure, but hopefully this combo will do ok.
 
One of the first lessons I learned on here after trial and error is the whole starter thing. It's not too much trouble to boil up some DME for a starter a few days in advance. The first real recipe I did, I pitched a vial of WL yeast and half of it spewed on the floor. It took a long time to start and it is by far the worst beer I've brewed yet. I've convinced myself that it was the low pitch rate that made this beer bad.

Now mine was an ale and every beer is different. Yours will probably be fine. Yooper and some others on here have tons of experience and give good advice so do what they tell you. My lager experience is spotty at best. I've got a Maibock thats going on 6 weeks now in primary. (It was at 1.020 at 4 wks) My other was the Pilsner Urquell clone from AHBS and it fermented out fairly quick for a lager but for some reason never cleared even after 6wks in lager.

What kit are you brewing?

Regards,
Al
 
I've only done one lager, but quickly discovered how crucial it is to have a GIANT starter. I pitched a 1 qt starter into my Oktoberfest and it pooped out at 1.041. Had to order more yeast and this time built up my starter to a full gallon. MUCH better results after the repitch.

I wouldn't worry about yours--lagers never really get much of a krausen (at least compared to ales) and a lot of times they look like they're not doing anything even when they are.

I agree that the "dots" are completely normal.
 
The kit I bought was the,

AHS American Light Lager

Goldings Hops / liquid extract / WLP840 White Labs yeast.

I know its boring and simple! Please chastise me! lol

Like I had mentioned its sitting in the frezzer atm at a steady 60. When I get home I was going to dial it down slowly over the course of the evening. How low do you guys think it should go for the first phase?
 
Couple things.

For lagers, you want a BIG pitch of yeast - you don't want to be promoting a lot of yeast reproduction in the wort. You want to pitch a huge amount of yeast and pitch it cold (or at least get the wort to fermentation temps ASAP; no monkeying around with starting warm, then cooling). I have a feeling that you're going to end up with a lot of ester production and a lager that's a lot more fruity than clean.
 
the_bird said:
Couple things.

For lagers, you want a BIG pitch of yeast - you don't want to be promoting a lot of yeast reproduction in the wort. You want to pitch a huge amount of yeast and pitch it cold (or at least get the wort to fermentation temps ASAP; no monkeying around with starting warm, then cooling). I have a feeling that you're going to end up with a lot of ester production and a lager that's a lot more fruity than clean.
Click to expand...


ACK! Well crap! The Austin Directions and Wiki both pointed to starting out warm and coming down slow to not shock the yeast. Im having my wife turn it down as I type this a little bit! :drunk:
 
Yes, the directions often say that, so that people are more secure to see fermentation actually start. I think our wiki does encourage you to pitch cold, though, with a big starter. I'll have to go read it again.

Most of us will recommend you make a starter with ANY liquid yeast, to increase your pitching rate. A vial really might be technically ready to pitch, but there isn't enough yeast to ferment a 5 gallon batch efficiently. A lager especially needs a bigger starter, and I'll actually start it about a week before, and "step it up" every few days adding more wort until I get a very large yeast cake to pitch. I then chill that starter, and decant the spent wort, and then pitch that into my lager. I like to pitch 48 degree yeast into 50 degree wort. I can't remember the technical reason why (I read it somewhere a long time ago), but it seems like that very small difference of pitching slightly cooler yeast into slightly warmer yeast reallly "wakes it up" and gets it going.

Of course, lagers are bottom fermenting, so you don't usually see the big krausens and tons of activity that you do with ales.

Edit- here's some great reading on fermenting lagers: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-4.html
 
the_bird said:
Couple things.

For lagers, you want a BIG pitch of yeast - you don't want to be promoting a lot of yeast reproduction in the wort. You want to pitch a huge amount of yeast and pitch it cold (or at least get the wort to fermentation temps ASAP; no monkeying around with starting warm, then cooling). I have a feeling that you're going to end up with a lot of ester production and a lager that's a lot more fruity than clean.
Click to expand...


That seems to be the consensus opinion around here, but I don't do that. I have had best results when I pitch my starter at ale temps and then bring it down to around 50-55. Never had a problem. I'm not picking on you, Bird, I just wanted the OP to know that both methods are fine and he needn't panic.

Taipans, you'll be fne the way you did it. You'll just have to be sure to do a diacetyl
rest before you rack to secondary and start the lagering process. No problem.
 
You pitch a starter though, don't you Bernie? To me, that's the biggest issue; pitching warm versus cold is an area of controversy, but what I think is a little bit more well-established is that you really don't want to underpitch (and then try and compensate with a warmer initial fermenation).
 
the_bird said:
You pitch a starter though, don't you Bernie? To me, that's the biggest issue; pitching warm versus cold is an area of controversy, but what I think is a little bit more well-established is that you really don't want to underpitch (and then try and compensate with a warmer initial fermenation).
Click to expand...



Bernie Brewer said:
I have had best results when I pitch my starter at ale temps and then bring it down to around 50-55
Click to expand...



Starters = Yup;)


Sorry Bird, I couldn't resist getting a bit smart-a$$ed on you there........
Yes, I always use a starter with liquid yeast, but I don't make them any bigger for lagers than I do for ales. I don't make them any different for higher-gravity beers, either for that matter. Whatever works, right? As long as it makes your socks go up and down.
 
Our very own Wiki does indeed suggest pitching into warm wort for your first lager:
Your First Lager Fermentation

Though many experienced brewers may read this and note that this is not the absolutely best way to ferment lagers, it is regarded as the most foolproof and that's what you are looking for for your first lager fermentation. You need the first batch to be a success to get hooked on lagers and their smooth taste. Then you may start digging deeper into this subject and find a fermentation schedule that works best for you and your set-up.

One day before brew day pitch a 2 qt (2 L) well aerated starter with an Activator Pack (Wyeast) or vial (White Labs) of the lager yeast of your choice. Both companies offer really great yeast strains. If you are looking for a versatile lager yeast go with the German Lager (WLP830 or Wyeast 2124; This might be the most widely used lager strain in German beers) or whatever your recipe calls for. Keep this starter at room temperature 68 - 70 *F (18 - 19 *C) and let it start fermenting. It may throw off some sulphur notes (rotten egg smell) which is common for lager yeasts.

Brew an average gravity lager OG: 1.044 - 1.056 (11 - 12 °P). These beers will not result in toxic alcohol levels for the yeast which makes for a more foregiving fermentation. Once brewed, chill the wort to a temperature below 70 *F (20 °C). The mid 60's should work best for this fermentation schedule. . . .

Pitch the whole starter into the primary fermenter. Wait until you see fermentation activity (low kraeusen or bubbles in the airlock) until you move the fermenter to an area (basement or fridge) where you have a constant 48 - 52 *F (9 - 11 *C). Let the primary fermentation take its course for a few (3-4 weeks) until there is no airlock activity left.
Click to expand...

Yes, making a big starter would have been a better idea than just pitching the kit yeast, but that aside there is nothing inherently wrong with pitching warm and dropping the temperature after fermentation takes off. That's the way homebrewers have been making lagers for decades. It just requires a diacetyl rest as an insurance policy.

On the other hand, Bird & Yooper are suggesting an approach closer to the way lagers are done in commercial breweries and the way Jamil Zainasheff & John Palmer recommend in "Brewing Classic Styles." It's a little more labor intensive but has the potential to create smoother, cleaner lagers with significantly less diacetyl production and no yeast esters.

Remember, NO Esthers!
180px-Aunt_Esther.jpg


Chad
 
I appreciate all the help guys! I feel somewhat at ease now, I think I just needed to RDWHAHB!

I get a little stressed over this, which is stupid.


You live you learn, next time I will for sure make a starter!
 
Taipans said:
I appreciate all the help guys! I feel somewhat at ease now, I think I just needed to RDWHAHB!

I get a little stressed over this, which is stupid.


You live you learn, next time I will for sure make a starter!
Click to expand...

Woops!

I found my answer quickly:

To remove any diacetyl that may be present after primary fermentation, a diacetyl rest may be used. This rest at the end of primary fermentation consists of raising the temperature of the beer to 55-60 °F for 24 - 48 hours before cooling it down for the lagering period. This makes the yeast more active and allows them to eat up the diacetyl before downshifting into lagering mode. Some yeast strains produce less diacetyl than others; a diacetyl rest is needed only if the pitching or fermentation conditions warrant it.


One thing, I suppose the raise - sit - then lager lowering has no time curve? Can I raise it up as fast as it can in ambient temp, then lower it quickly since the yeast is all done?
 
I'm not sure what you are asking about the diacetyl rest. When you do the diacetyl rest, you wait until fermentation at the primary temperature is about 75% done. Then, you raise the temperature for 24-48 hours to allow the yeast to finish up and eat up the diacetyl. You don't really have to do that gradually- the large volume of beer in the carboy will kind of make it a slow warm up. I actually wouldn't raise to only 55-60 for this rest, though- if I was fermenting at 50 degrees, I'd raise it to about 65. You can then taste the beer- if you still detect diacetyl (a buttery or butterscotch flavor, or a "slickness" or oiliness in the mouthfeel), then leave it sit at that higher temperature until it's gone.

Then, you can rack to secondary and begin the lagering process.
 
Thanks Yooper that was pretty much what I was asking. Luckily I hit the OG right on as recipe calls and know what the FG should get to. How cold should I bring the primary phase down to? Its at 45'F right now.
 
From White Lab's website:

WLP840 American Lager Yeast
This yeast is used to produce American style lagers. Dry and clean with a very slight apple fruitiness. Sulfur and diacetyl production is minimal.
Attenuation: 75-80%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 50-55°F
Alcohol Tolerance: Medium

I'd set it at about 50 degrees untill it's about 75% done.
 
YooperBrew said:
From White Lab's website:

WLP840 American Lager Yeast
This yeast is used to produce American style lagers. Dry and clean with a very slight apple fruitiness. Sulfur and diacetyl production is minimal.
Attenuation: 75-80%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 50-55°F
Alcohol Tolerance: Medium

I'd set it at about 50 degrees untill it's about 75% done.
Click to expand...

75% done? Does that mean 75% to final gravity? Sorry guys I feel so stupid asking these things! From what I am reading and what everyone is posted I got a feeling I am suppose to do these next steps.


Ferment in Primary at 50'F until you reach 75% of final gravity
diacetyl rest at 60'F for 24-48 hours (possibly to final gravity is reached?)
rack to secondary
Lager

Keg / carb / enjoy

:mug:
 
One thing I noticed with the lager I made is that the bubbling was different than with the ales I've made. Instead of the steady tic, tic, tic of the ale, it was more of a giant burp every now and then. I had it in plastic so I couldn't see what it was doing. This burping went on for over a week, at about 54 deg. I don't have diacetyl, but I do have banana ester as an off flavor, so I did something wrong, or maybe the yeast did. I've only opened a few at this point and never with the intention of just sitting down and having a brew. I'll see in the long run if it is drinkable, but slightly off, or just plain bad.
 
Taipans said:
75% done? Does that mean 75% to final gravity? Sorry guys I feel so stupid asking these things! From what I am reading and what everyone is posted I got a feeling I am suppose to do these next steps.


Ferment in Primary at 50'F until you reach 75% of final gravity
diacetyl rest at 60'F for 24-48 hours (possibly to final gravity is reached?)
rack to secondary
Lager

Keg / carb / enjoy

:mug:
Click to expand...

YES! You've got it. And you can do the diacetyl rest a bit warmer, though, to help ensure it's all cleaned up. Taste it to make sure before racking to secondary. Otherwise, you've got it down!
 
OK one more time. 75% of FG before or after racking to secondary?

Doing a Pils and Marzen.

Marzen started at 1.057 at 1.020 after 28 days at ~50 F. Est FG 1.014.
Pils started at 1.050 at 1.017 after 28 days at ~50 F Est FG 1.010

Took them out for a diacetyl rest to 60 F (although no taste of diacetyl) fermentation started back up now after 96 hours they're still bubbling away shaving a little less than a point a day.

1. Have I wrecked them leaving them at 60 F for too long?
2. Should I leave them until they hit their terminal gravity (or at least stop going down)?
3. Should I rack them now, put them back in the lagering chest and slowly bring them down to the low 40's high 30's?

I'm planning on lagering for two months will I still shave a few points off? I always thought lagering was just for clearing and conditioning?

Thanks
Rudeboy

ps need help fast. If I'm ruining the beer I don't want 96 hours to become 120 hours. Conversly I don't want to rack to early and stall.
 
Rudeboy said:
OK one more time. 75% of FG before or after racking to secondary?

Doing a Pils and Marzen.

Marzen started at 1.057 at 1.020 after 28 days at ~50 F. Est FG 1.014.
Pils started at 1.050 at 1.017 after 28 days at ~50 F Est FG 1.010

Took them out for a diacetyl rest to 60 F (although no taste of diacetyl) fermentation started back up now after 96 hours they're still bubbling away shaving a little less than a point a day.

1. Have I wrecked them leaving them at 60 F for too long?
2. Should I leave them until they hit their terminal gravity (or at least stop going down)?
3. Should I rack them now, put them back in the lagering chest and slowly bring them down to the low 40's high 30's?

I'm planning on lagering for two months will I still shave a few points off? I always thought lagering was just for clearing and conditioning?

Thanks
Rudeboy

ps need help fast. If I'm ruining the beer I don't want 96 hours to become 120 hours. Conversly I don't want to rack to early and stall.
Click to expand...


Rude, I just had a Maibock that was down to 1.022 from 1.066 after four weeks as well. I did a three day diacetyl rest just before I checked it. Anyway I put it back down to ferment temps for a few more weeks and i'll check again later this week. I do believe fermentation is supposed to be done before cold lagering.

You might want to post this in a thread by itself.

Regards & Good Luck
Al
 
GIusedtoBe said:
Rude, I just had a Maibock that was down to 1.022 from 1.066 after four weeks as well. I did a three day diacetyl rest just before I checked it. Anyway I put it back down to ferment temps for a few more weeks and i'll check again later this week. I do believe fermentation is supposed to be done before cold lagering.

You might want to post this in a thread by itself.

Regards & Good Luck
Al
Click to expand...

'Kay roger that.

I think the 60 F is not so far out of the lager range and the flavour profile will be set already by the first 75% of the fermentation. (this is all just a guess and wishful thinking.) I'll let it go to near FG.

Thanks

Rudeboy
 

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