Some questions about 80/20 for a stand

That was the regulator, but it wasn't for that price. You might be able to find it cheaper on amazon or someplace else.

My shields are stainless, but they are welded directly to the stainless grate as well. Kept it simple.

worstbrewing said:

And regarding the MIG welder, you mentioned using gas, but maybe I don't understand welding enough. This one claims to not need a shielding gas, so would it be good to use as-is? http://www.harborfreight.com/welding/mig-flux-welders/90-amp-flux-wire-welder-98871.html

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I covered this in my previous post. There are "MIG" welders that only do flux cored welding, really not true MIG but similar, then there are models with gas hookups that can do both. Sometimes it is ~$25 difference between the two, so you can add gas later for the price of a bottle & reg. MIG welds require less cleanup than flux cored, and can be slightly better depending on the environment. MIG can also weld aluminum and stainless. Flux core is good enough for a stand, and can work better when you are not welding in an enclosed shop. Check on this site for discussions of the particular HF welders, and others, that are a good value.

@cwi - My bad, I do remember you saying that now. Just checked out harborfreight to see what else they have but the rest of the welders are all 230V so might nix that, since I don't have a 230V line in my garage and don't see it very worthwhile to add one for the few times I may use it :-/ so we'll see, my buddy's friend still has access to one so it'll just be a matter of moving it later.

@dfess1 - I found a similar one on amazon but noticed it says it is 3/8". I know I've seen a few different threads about 3/8" vs 1/4" and from what I've read the BG14 is 1/4", think I'd be better off saving myself the hassle and just going with one that is 1/4" but 30psi instead, like this one?

I think I have the stand design finalized after much tweaking. I believe I'll go with these casters from Home Depot unless there's any reason not to. They are 4" and lock, so that seems to cover the most important bases, I believe. The only thing not 100% final on the stand is the top, the support beams for the kettles. They will be the size, but their distance apart will possibly change once I start lining up the burners, heat shield, etc.
Attached are the sketches, and below are links to larger sized images (didn't want them taking up too much space on the page by embedding them). Let me know what you think, cheers!

http://worstbrewing.com/images/brewhouse/final/final1.png
http://worstbrewing.com/images/brewhouse/final/final2.png
http://worstbrewing.com/images/brewhouse/final/final3.png
http://worstbrewing.com/images/brewhouse/final/final4.png

Got a quote back from a company for $140 for the steel, or $330 total for steel and for them to weld it, so I might just go that route but wanted to see if anyone had any final thoughts on the stand design/layout before I pull the trigger. Will there be enough room for the burners? I think they are 10", and I left 1'2" on either end (and for some reason only 1" in the middle, guess I can change that quick) so I would imagine that is fine, but just wanted to get any last minute feedback. Thanks!

$330 is an excellent price.
The burners have an actual diameter and the mounting lugs of 11-1/4". Total length on the burners is 15".

Good to know, thanks. While total length is 15", i assume that includes the arm for gas/air intake? Assuming this will end up hanging just below the frame I assume that wouldn't be as much of an issue? I'll have to double check my notes later as I'm not sure why I made the middle burner 1' but it should be easy to adjust it to 1'2" which sounds like it should suffice. I forgot about casters, will there be an easy way to put those on later, or should I try to get them welded at the same time?

you can go two routes with the casters:
Bolt-on casters or stem casters

for bolt-on casters - have them weld pads on

for stem casters make up 4 1/8" plates the same dimensions as your tube. Drill a hole in each and weld a nut the size of the stem on the back side. Then have the plates welded on the bottom.

We use stem casters because you can adjust the height of each caster independently.

That makes sense, thanks! Not sure which route I'll go quite yet, though the stem casters sounds more ideal, I guess I'll throw both at the welders and see what they comeback with. Thanks again, getting pretty excited this is finally coming together!

worstbrewing said:

Got a quote back from a company for $140 for the steel, or $330 total for steel and for them to weld it, so I might just go that route but wanted to see if anyone had any final thoughts on the stand design/layout before I pull the trigger. Will there be enough room for the burners? I think they are 10", and I left 1'2" on either end (and for some reason only 1" in the middle, guess I can change that quick) so I would imagine that is fine, but just wanted to get any last minute feedback. Thanks!

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Have you thought this through?

Your stand as pictured has no mounts/tabs/pads for casters, gas, burners, pumps, plumbing, etc.

Trying to prototype anything through a 3rd party is very time consuming, both in the planning and inevitable revisions/redesigns. Your current approach appears to leave many things left as DIY that still require buying the tools that having it shop-made avoids. If you just don't want to spend the time or effort building the basic frame, it makes sense, otherwise this is a bit of a train wreck.

Do you plan on using your friends borrowed welder and tools to do that final assembly that requires welding, or trying a bolt on approach? Do you plan on having the shop build a completed and finished stand?

You will need very specific and detailed drawings to give to a welder to get a finished stand. This is very time consuming, and is most easily done with a mock-up. Or, you can save all that time and effort planning; and either build it yourself on the fly with only a basic plan, or buy a completed stand.

worstbrewing said:

That makes sense, thanks! Not sure which route I'll go quite yet, though the stem casters sounds more ideal, I guess I'll throw both at the welders and see what they comeback with. Thanks again, getting pretty excited this is finally coming together!

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If you have to hash things out much with your welder, he will quickly become soured on building this. The price quoted was for a basic frame. As soon as you start adding bits and pieces and tying up the welder's time explaining various things that need to be just so, the price will likely go up.

There is welding, and then there is fabrication. Welding is trained monkey work, and can be estimated fairly accurately. Fabricating, especially a prototype, is time consuming. If you were to ask how much OneHoppyGuy would have had to charge to make just one stand from scratch, it would not be anywhere near his production models. The design costs are spread out over the projected volume.

cwi said:

Have you thought this through?

Your stand as pictured has no mounts/tabs/pads for casters, gas, burners, pumps, plumbing, etc.

Trying to prototype anything through a 3rd party is very time consuming, both in the planning and inevitable revisions/redesigns. Your current approach appears to leave many things left as DIY that still require buying the tools that having it shop-made avoids. If you just don't want to spend the time or effort building the basic frame, it makes sense, otherwise this is a bit of a train wreck.

Do you plan on using your friends borrowed welder and tools to do that final assembly that requires welding, or trying a bolt on approach? Do you plan on having the shop build a completed and finished stand?

You will need very specific and detailed drawings to give to a welder to get a finished stand. This is very time consuming, and is most easily done with a mock-up. Or, you can save all that time and effort planning; and either build it yourself on the fly with only a basic plan, or buy a completed stand.

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Well, long story short, the welder is a friend of a friend and it turns out he doesn't have a welder anymore, so it would require buying one. When I showed him what I was looking at through harbor freight he said he wasn't too familiar with that specific one, which gives me some doubts. Since I'm not about to wire up a 220V line just to install something better, it makes more sense to me to just have the shop do it, since they quoted a good price anyway.

As for tabs, etc. maybe I'm thinking this through the wrong way, but I was thinking I could drill/screw in some of the pieces later with some sheet metal or something. I already have a March Pump with the bracket, so I was planning to just mount that and get another of the same kind, but maybe my assumptions are wrong?

The stand, as pictured above, they didn't have any further questions so I assume as it is they should be able to weld it, but maybe I'm assuming too much?

Seems like you are well on your way already, but here is my 80/20 brew stand. Only 10 Gal, but it handles it with ease:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/80-20-brew-stand-212840/

And I only used the 1"x1" stuff.

Here is a pic so you dont have to go through the whole thread:

They can build the stand as pictured easy enough, and will do it for the price quoted- probably even if they find out mid-way that the estimate was a bit low.

If you start adding things, like "make these casters work", or "I need a place to mount my pump, also", and "have you already started, because there is one more thing...", the price will go up, or they will tell you to find another shop. Believe it or not, they will not share your enthusiasm for making the dream brew stand a reality.

Bolting things on can be done for most things, but for others it is very difficult to find a place to brace or mount it. There is also the time/hassle factor. Spend an hour drilling, cutting, bolting, or about 2 minutes with a welder. You do realize that with tubing you will have to drill through both sides to be able to bolt?

It comes down to whether you like to tinker and DIY stuff. If you do, get a cheap welder and some basic tools, and you will have fun. Bring some brew buddies around to participate in the build and design process.

If that doesn't sound like fun, or if you want something that looks completely polished and professional, and never want to change anything about it, I would go with a pre-made stand. A stand of your own design, built by someone else (who doesn't brew), will probably not get you what you want if you are in this camp.

RE: welders. Of course he isn't familiar with some random HF welder that changes year to year. Do a search on HBT for HF, Miller, Lincoln welders and DIY stands. There is a bunch of info already out there. Or maybe post a new thread like "I want a cheap MIG welder, what should I get?"

Things that add to the price, but are nice, are infinite voltage control, gas solenoid (or the ability to add a kit later), etc.

@cwi - Yeah, that's true. I guess I'll talk to the welder friend again and just make sure we're on the same page, if he'd have a preference in welder even if we just have to rent one or something. Ultimately, I would like to learn some bits on welding, just want this project to go right too and wasn't feeling too confident in his reply. I guess we'll see, either way at least I can get the steel from this company even if they don't build it. Thanks for the concern and feedback, definitely a few things I hadn't considered.

@PaulHilgeman - Thanks, I actually think I'll go the steel route but was looking at your build quite a bit to see if 80/20 was the route I wanted to go. I do like the stuff, but once I started getting quotes on cost it didn't seem much more beneficial for what I'm trying to accomplish.

worstbrewing said:

just want this project to go right

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This is what I think is your biggest problem. Just pick out a suitable 110V welder and chop saw in your price range, and start gluing stuff together.

As I said before, you are going to drive (have driven?) yourself batty trying to get the perfect stand on your first attempt. Give up on the "one size fits all", like your original posts indicated. Pick a batch size/pot, and build to that with just a basic plan. Chalk up the first one as a prototype. Make it out of angle iron if you want. Much cheaper. You will have all of $75 in materials, and you can add or mod it at will.

Even guys that had immaculate plans ended up having to make adjustments on the fly. You can't really plan for EVERYTHING, especially for your first attempt, and more so if you don't have all the parts yet.

It will take about 1 hour of playing around before you can lay a weld bead that will be good enough for a brew stand. It really is that easy. Look at some of the threads of first time welders, and the stands they made. I have yet to find one where the guy wasn't thrilled with playing around with the welder. The hardest part will be keeping the parts squared up when welding, but it won't matter that much if it isn't. Don't bother renting a welder. I can guarantee it will not be cost effective. It will cost more for 2 days than buying a HF welder, and you will not have anything afterwards to make mods with. And, you will still need a chop saw and grinder.

One tip is to make a raised pot stand/grate instead of using the frame rails. Breathing is an issue, and the heat is funneled out the corners only. Something similar to how a commercial stove allows the flame to spread out works better.

Don't rely solely on this thread and your friend who welds as your source of information. There are various threads here on HF welders, higher end welders, and DIY stands. Read and ask questions there, but don't seek perfection or divine enlightenment before jumping in.

The next post to this thread should be a pic of the stand built with your new welder.

If you want flexibility and are not quite sure of additional future components at the time of your initial build, consider using electrical strut for some of frame members. Changes / adds are then very easy to bolt on.

Thanks Junkster, but I think I'll stick with cwi's advice and just build it as a learning tool, adding things as I go or scrapping it for a new one as needed. Considering the overall investment is pretty cheap, seems like the best route to go. Just gotta coordinate everything next, hoping to start putting it together in the next few weeks :rockin:

Thanks again everyone for your advice!

I'd go with these casters you will need to to put some pads on the bottom of the legs. But they will handle the weight a hell of a lot better than the ones from HD.

If you pick up the welder and chop saw, I have an angle grinder. Would be more than willing to help you out. Not saying I'm some master welder myself, as I just learned this past spring, but as has been pointed out, it's not too hard.

Awesome, thanks! I'll let you know, still waiting to hear back from my buddy about the welder, etc. but definitely appreciate it!

Here is a guy with the type of burner grate I think works best. If the frame "box" is smaller than your pot, the grate should be higher than the frame rails to allow the flame to spread out evenly. His burner shields could probably use some venting notches. He lives near a town where I used to duck hunt. Nothing but working ranches around there. You can always count on folks from those parts to make practical things. Something the rest of us "dudes" could learn from.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/raw-material-question-brewsculpture-284346/#post3530285