The [Horribly Unpopular] Soccer Thread

Reno_eNVy said:

Okay, I think he makes some great points. But a couple things stick out to me as someone who has played or been involved in soccer for as long as I can remember (literally, I started playing at 4 which is around my earlier memories too):


- I understand how some people will cringe at the lingo. I realize that some newer or Euro fans will force themselves to say pitch, kit, etc. However, the footwear will forever and always be "boots." "Cleats" sounds awkward to me. Pitch and field, kit and uniform, match and game... those are all interchangeable in my book. It's basically whichever one pops into my head first or sounds better. And "Belgium have won" is 100% the correct grammar. They are a collaboration of people. If a dude named Belgium won a foosball game, it would be "Belgium has won."

- If you don't like the scarves, don't get one. F**k you. They're perfect for winter games and when you get several hundred or even thousands of people holding up scarves or swinging them around their heads it looks really good. The players can definitely see that. Plus they're just another form of showing pride. For the game against Portugal I wore my AO shirt, an American flag as a cape, my badass USA WC scarf over that, and an American flag bandanna. It's just another piece of flare.

- I'll take a "Internacional CD Sporting Chattanooga FCSC Atletico" over "The Chattanooga ChooChoos" any day for any amount of money. The American sporting naming system of
"The [city] [fierce plural noun]" is lazy, boring, and pretty cheesy. Hell, the WNBA/NWSL/Old-MLS system is just as bad: "[city] [singular noun or intangible phenomenon]" such as Fire, Fever, Sting, etc. Sadly, my heart belongs to a team that falls into the last category... but at least Galaxy makes sense; LA is full of stars! *rim shot* See? Cheesy. I hope the Chivas USA rebrand is along the lines of "Los Angeles FC" or go for something more creative like "CD Angelenos" or "Angelenos FC"

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It is going to be hard for you to see it through a new guy's perspective. To me, understand that I'm a fan of sports and just enjoy watching great athletes, some of the things he pointed out are exactly why I can't get into non-World Cup soccer. There is no such thing as a bad ass scarf from my 37 years of experience on this planet. But, like you said, to each his own. I also think the team name thing is spot on. LA Galaxy, sure...Portland Timbers, makes perfect sense...the others are just England, Jr. like he said. I have no idea what FC Dallas even means. Now, remember the context is about growing the sport and the imitation of euro traditions is a huge turnoff for say NFL or MLB fans you are trying to draw. Add the snobby nature of long time fans and you have a sport struggling to break through. MLS desperately needs a Michael Jordan or John Madden type of influence. Be it commentating, coaching or playing....Some dude named Landon ain't getting it done for NFL fans I can tell you that. Maybe Americanizing it just to get fans is not in the best interest of the sport. But MLS will NEVER sniff the likes of NFL, MLB or NBA until it happens.

Personally, I think it's fine the way it is. Maybe there are too many teams and the talent is diluted a bit much but I think true soccer fans have plenty of access to the sport both in person and on TV. Not sure why it's even a competition with the other sports...It's just a topic of conversation I suppose.

Reno_eNVy said:

The kicker actually isn't allowed to stop by the rules of the game. However, players have been able to bend that rule using stutter steps, long slow strides between other steps, and the Fred "Twinkle Toes" Flintstone approach (Jesus, with the US soccer fan demographic as young as it is, most supporters wouldn't get that last one.) As long as there is forward progression it's alright.

HOWEVER, as someone who played keeper for quite some time, I can tell you the keepers bend the rules, too. If you really pay attention during PKs, almost every single keeper will be at least a meter in front of the line before the kick is taken. Some of the crafty ones can get up even farther.

My issue with the PKs is encroachment isn't called nearly enough.

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Of course goalies get off the line. But plenty of players stop with their "twinkle toes" step. Of course they don't just totally stop but their forward momentum stops. And I've seen guys who totally stop. And get away with it.

I think once a player takes say 4 steps the goalie should be allowed off the line.

Heh I should have ended the post in [/rant]

I'm more than willing to accommodate someone new to the soccer world. I can calmly explain why certain things are they way they are. But it's the internet so I get a little over the top sometimes

hoppyhoppyhippo said:

Of course goalies get off the line. But plenty of players stop with their "twinkle toes" step. Of course they don't just totally stop but their forward momentum stops. And I've seen guys who totally stop. And get away with it.



I think once a player takes say 4 steps the goalie should be allowed off the line.

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Excuse me, but the proper nomenclature is "goal keeper". I'll stop now, while I'm behind...

And here I am calling them goal tenders

Punity said:

And here I am calling them goal tenders

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One tends goals in hockey, but keeps them in soccer. Alternately, I suppose one minds nets in hockey, too. It's complicated, I know. It's also far beyond what we need to be worrying about, but maybe that's just me.

Soccer ball stopper guy

HoppyDaze said:

Soccer ball stopper guy

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I think I like this one best!

But yeah, "goalkeeper" or just "keeper."

Or because its 2014 just GK haha

Re the Oberman thing. I have a better idea, why not just leave soccer alone to develop in the USA on it's own without silly cherry picking over which aspects of the game are American enough and which are not? It will still have a uniquely American identity, as it already does.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

Re the Oberman thing. I have a better idea, why not just leave soccer alone to develop in the USA on it's own without silly cherry picking over which aspects of the game are American enough and which are not? It will still have a uniquely American identity, as it already does.

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Agreed, natural evolution would serve the sport much better. Changing it to lure non or casual fans is dumb.

HoppyDaze said:

Agreed, natural evolution would serve the sport much better. Changing it to lure non or casual fans is dumb.

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They could implement a glowing CGI effect to help viewers trax the ball.

They could have a clock showing how much time a player or team has spent writhing on the ground in agony.

Brazilian-Style female soccer fans would go a long way toward increasing US interest. They should encourage that more.

Homercidal said:

They could implement a glowing CGI effect to help viewers trax the ball.

They could have a clock showing how much time a player or team has spent writhing on the ground in agony.

Brazilian-Style female soccer fans would go a long way toward increasing US interest. They should encourage that more.

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and we have our quote of the week

Olberman and Golic and all the gray hairs need not worry about 'growing the sport.' That is happening without them, thank you very much. And their worry about who plays where is changing as well -- it is very simply a matter of money and nothing more. Howard will play in England because the money is there .. whereas Dempsey and Bradley are coming to North America because they can afford to (not too big a pay cut). It is all $$ driven. Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker and Tim Duncan play in the US because Argentina, France and the USVI don't have the pay scale that the US does. "If you pay them, they will come."

soccerdad said:

Olberman and Golic and all the gray hairs need not worry about 'growing the sport.'

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"Growing the sport" is an interesting phrase that brings gardening to mind. I am not a gardener at all. All I ever do is plant something and see if it grows. If it likes it's surroundings, and can survive my ham-fisted gardening methods, then, and only then, do I really begin to admire it and maybe even tend to it's needs a little.

Soccer is one of those hardy plants that will survive the most ham-fisted gardeners, and grow anywhere it is planted. Just my opinion, of course.


I watched a timbers game on TV while back. There was some guy cutting logs with a chainsaw supposedly to entertain the fans.........The English part of me cringed and wondered WTF!?............ The "New American" side of me accepted it quite easily and thought it was actually pleasantly subdued compared to the normal American sports antics employed for sports with a lot more downtime...............In short, US soccer does NOT have an identity problem.

soccerdad said:

Olberman and Golic and all the gray hairs need not worry about 'growing the sport.' That is happening without them, thank you very much. And their worry about who plays where is changing as well -- it is very simply a matter of money and nothing more. Howard will play in England because the money is there .. whereas Dempsey and Bradley are coming to North America because they can afford to (not too big a pay cut). It is all $$ driven. Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker and Tim Duncan play in the US because Argentina, France and the USVI don't have the pay scale that the US does. "If you pay them, they will come."

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both Dempsey & Bradley are making significantly more money in MLS than they ever made in Europe.

Just so we clear up an issue about penalty kicks... from fifa law 14,

Feinting in the run-up to take a penalty kick to confuse opponents is permitted
as part of football. However, feinting to kick the ball once the player has
completed his run-up is considered an infringement of Law 14 and an act of
unsporting behaviour for which the player must be cautioned

The reason the GK is given a step in PK situation is they haven't technically left the goal line as they still have a foot there. Both feet to start GK, if the GK begins to step out but pulls back and makes the save, do you rekick? IF he steps out with both feet completely leaving the line? rekick is very probable. One foot, not so much.

Law 18 has to apply as well.

Cheers fellas.

"Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both Dempsey & Bradley are making significantly more money in MLS than they ever made in Europe."

Actually it's a combo. They could get similar money in Europe, but be bench or reserve players. The move to the US for both these guys had more to do with playing time and the winding down of their careers than dollars here or there. Plus the perks of being faces of US soccer with advertisers.... Donovan has dominated the ad market cause he's here. Dempsey is going to make bucks from his performance. Bradley? some, but not as much.

But the main reason these guys came home is they want to play all the time, not every 4th weekend of the month. You fall out of favor with a coach or the coach gets fired and your career can change overnight.

soccerdad said:

Olberman and Golic and all the gray hairs need not worry about 'growing the sport.' That is happening without them, thank you very much. And their worry about who plays where is changing as well -- it is very simply a matter of money and nothing more. Howard will play in England because the money is there .. whereas Dempsey and Bradley are coming to North America because they can afford to (not too big a pay cut). It is all $$ driven. Manu Ginobli and Tony Parker and Tim Duncan play in the US because Argentina, France and the USVI don't have the pay scale that the US does. "If you pay them, they will come."

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Presumably there's a strong element of challenge/prestige involved as well. All things being equal most players at this level want to play against the best of the best, and we can all agree that's not MLS. For that reason, it's hard to imagine a top player like Messi or Ronaldo taking a deal like Beckham did (accepting a well above market value contract in exchange for lending his name and reputation to a lesser league), even if they could make more money that way.

It looks like the Tim Howard memes are rolling in. Some good stuff here.

lgilmore said:

"Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both Dempsey & Bradley are making significantly more money in MLS than they ever made in Europe."

Actually it's a combo. They could get similar money in Europe, but be bench or reserve players. The move to the US for both these guys had more to do with playing time and the winding down of their careers than dollars here or there. Plus the perks of being faces of US soccer with advertisers.... Donovan has dominated the ad market cause he's here. Dempsey is going to make bucks from his performance. Bradley? some, but not as much.

But the main reason these guys came home is they want to play all the time, not every 4th weekend of the month. You fall out of favor with a coach or the coach gets fired and your career can change overnight.

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Let's not get that started, please MLS is no longer a retirement league. Yes, there are a few 35-ish year olds but some of them have been around since MLS 2.0. Late-20-somethings in their physical prime have been making their way over the last few years.

Reno_eNVy said:

Let's not get that started, please MLS is no longer a retirement league. Yes, there are a few 35-ish year olds but some of them have been around since MLS 2.0. Late-20-somethings in their physical prime have been making their way over the last few years.

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Take a look at the MLS salaries. You're not getting top talent at those rates.

Mongrel said:

Take a look at the MLS salaries. You're not getting top talent at those rates.

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That's due to the salary budget. It's pretty dang low but smart clubs that use the Designated Player rule can pull some huge names. Yes, the average salary is low but there's going to be a new Collective Bargaining Agreement (basically, players union making deals with the league) and the budget plus DP rule is expected to get more lucrative.

Reno_eNVy said:

That's due to the salary budget. It's pretty dang low but smart clubs that use the Designated Player rule can pull some huge names. Yes, the average salary is low but there's going to be a new Collective Bargaining Agreement (basically, players union making deals with the league) and the budget plus DP rule is expected to get more lucrative.

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We need to get more of our guys shipped over to Europe. Paying a couple of guys big bucks to attract the fans while most make **** wages won't help us develop our National team. We need our guys playing with and against the best in the world on a regular basis.

what if the refs looked like this?

lgilmore said:

"Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both Dempsey & Bradley are making significantly more money in MLS than they ever made in Europe."

Actually it's a combo. They could get similar money in Europe, but be bench or reserve players. The move to the US for both these guys had more to do with playing time and the winding down of their careers than dollars here or there. Plus the perks of being faces of US soccer with advertisers.... Donovan has dominated the ad market cause he's here. Dempsey is going to make bucks from his performance. Bradley? some, but not as much.

But the main reason these guys came home is they want to play all the time, not every 4th weekend of the month. You fall out of favor with a coach or the coach gets fired and your career can change overnight.

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Really?
From NBC Sports....

Bradley’s reported salary would be a huge step up from the wages he garnered at Roma. Paid €800,000 after tax in Italy (roughly $1.1 million), the former Metro Stars midfielder would be making between five- and six-times more money to shift back to Major League Soccer. While they’ll certainly be questions about the motives of a 26-year-old midfielder swapping Serie A for Toronto FC, the pure financial motivation makes it difficult to argue with Bradley’s move

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As for Dempsey....

Seattle have guaranteed the 30-year-old attacker $32 million over the next four seasons, making him one of the most expensive players in league history

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I have a hard time believing Tottenham were paying him 8mil a season.

Mongrel said:

We need to get more of our guys shipped over to Europe.

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This is brought up a lot and every time I'll say no. Keep our talent here, grow local talent giving the youth someone to look up to in their own city. It will grow the league.

Mongrel said:

Paying a couple of guys big bucks to attract the fans while most make **** wages won't help us develop our National team.

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10 years ago, the minimum salary wasn't even a living wage. After the next CBA it's expected to go up to a rather decent salary... at least something you'd expect to make after grad school (50-60k)

Mongrel said:

We need our guys playing with and against the best in the world on a regular basis.

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I'd rather keep them here and let the rest of the world talent come to us over time.

Mongrel said:

We need to get more of our guys shipped over to Europe. Paying a couple of guys big bucks to attract the fans while most make **** wages won't help us develop our National team. We need our guys playing with and against the best in the world on a regular basis.

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I have to think that shipping people out is a bad idea if they arne't ready. Better to get reps in MLS then ride the bench in EPL. Neymar was playing in Brazil until this past season, nothing wrong with developing kids in MLS.

Ideal MLS situation is to have an academy system like they do in Europe, have kids start out here getting good to avoid say a Giuseppe Rossi situation. I also think that US needs a more national coaching method brought in.

hoppyhoppyhippo said:

Neymar was playing in Brazil until this past season, nothing wrong with developing kids in MLS.

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Sure, but now Neymar is pulling in £120,000 a week at Barcelona. Brazil and Argentina sell all their talent to European clubs because they can't afford to keep them at home. If we want MLS to be a great league, it's going to cost some serious money.

It'd be great if the MLS developed into a big-time league, but right now it's not that close to the Mexican league, let alone the top Euros. I suppose a massive salary increase would help raise the talent level, but it won't get that kind of money without the league being taken seriously. Unless you know a few sheikhs looking to invest. Given that the US population is roughly equal to the total of Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the UK, maybe one day we'll be able to be support a top-tier league of our own (I don't consider France to be top-tier).

Oh dear.....Germany v France. I'm conflicted! I want them both to lose 6-0!!!!

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

Oh dear.....Germany v France. I'm conflicted! I want them both to lose 6-0!!!!

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Hah, at least one of them is going home today.

Mongrel said:

Sure, but now Neymar is pulling in £120,000 a week at Barcelona. Brazil and Argentina sell all their talent to European clubs because they can't afford to keep them at home. If we want MLS to be a great league, it's going to cost some serious money.

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Yes, but that's how MLS gets better without having a situation similar to MLB.

Neymar was sold to Barca for a ton of money. Lucas Moura was sold to PSG for a fortune. Oscar was sold to Chelsea for a fortune. These teams then take that money and develop more stars and they have an excellent league for that reason. MLS will need to do the same thing. Let's use Landon Donovan 20 years ago as an example. Before high school he is recruited to a camp after years of coming up and proving he's a star, he then is sold by LA to Manchester United for a fortune. Of course the league needs to prove it can churn out stars before that happens. but I think the future of MLS to ascend the ranks before it can become a top league is to first be a farm. Retain the more middling US players but let the promising ones go to Europe for big bucks.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

Oh dear.....Germany v France. I'm conflicted! I want them both to lose 6-0!!!!

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I came into the game thinking France would win, but I've changed my mind after their unconventional usage of the water break to drink a glass of wine and smoke several unfiltered cigarettes.

Pretty good game this. France have surrendered territory to the Germans, but are now offering some small resistance.

Mongrel said:

Sure, but now Neymar is pulling in £120,000 a week at Barcelona. Brazil and Argentina sell all their talent to European clubs because they can't afford to keep them at home. If we want MLS to be a great league, it's going to cost some serious money.

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Yes but flinging serious money is not the end-all-be-all of making MLS bigger. Certain clubs throwing fliff around and not even counting while other clubs struggle to keep their doors open is part of what killed the old NASL. Well, that, and expanding too fast into markets that weren't ready for professional soccer.

The slow-and-steady growth with occasional booms has been working out great for MLS. We draw more crowds than NHL, NBA, and a good chunk of MLB. Soccer is the most popular sport to watch and play in the 18-25 demographic. Hell, the vast majority of MLS and USMNT fans are 18-25 which means they are the perfect age to start having kids and get them hooked as well.

Let's also not forget the massive new TV deal going into effect next year. ESPN and Fox Sports will no longer be doing Premiere League and will be focusing solely on MLS and USMNT. They are finally doing the right thing and playing matches on the same time same day every week. IIRC, UniMas will play every Friday night (and they will even have a reverse-SAP button. You can watch on a Spanish-speaking network with English-speaking broadcasters.) Then ESPN and Fox will have back-to-back matches (hour break in between, I believe) on Sunday afternoons. Plus there will be more access to digital programming on all networks even if you don't have a cable subscription, which I think is an incredibly smart move considering the large shift from cable/satellite to online programming.

NYC and Orlando are massive markets, and with the inclusion of Atlanta and possibly Miami we finally have a foothold in the south. And the expansion possibility skyrockets if you include the cities that have been campaigning for a club: Minneapolis, St. Louis, Las Vegas, Sacramento, San Antonio, and a few others that have expressed interest.

If you told fans 10 years ago that MLS would be where it is now, they would have laughed in your face. I don't see any reason why the growth can't continue as long as the league keeps making smart decisions that pay off over time.

kingwood-kid said:

It'd be great if the MLS developed into a big-time league, but right now it's not that close to the Mexican league, let alone the top Euros. I suppose a massive salary increase would help raise the talent level, but it won't get that kind of money without the league being taken seriously. Unless you know a few sheikhs looking to invest. Given that the US population is roughly equal to the total of Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the UK, maybe one day we'll be able to be support a top-tier league of our own (I don't consider France to be top-tier).

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Do you support the Dynamo?

kingwood-kid said:

I came into the game thinking France would win, but I've changed my mind after their unconventional usage of the water break to drink a glass of wine and smoke several unfiltered cigarettes.

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Those water breaks have me a little worried. While I see the sense behind the idea in that climate, it poses a potential threat of a future game of 4 quarters and beer commercials coming out the arse.

Reno, have you had a chance to make it to a Timbers match yet? The crowds there are awesome. Look, I agree with a lot what you're saying about developing the league here. It's been fun to watch the growth since the '94 World Cup. I just want the players on our national team to get more experience playing at higher levels. Having grown up in South America, I'd love to see the clubs be able to sign and develop children. Probably won't ever happen here, but it works.

Reno_eNVy said:

NYC and Orlando are massive markets, and with the inclusion of Atlanta and possibly Miami we finally have a foothold in the south. And the expansion possibility skyrockets if you include the cities that have been campaigning for a club: Minneapolis, St. Louis, Las Vegas, Sacramento, San Antonio, and a few others that have expressed interest.

Do you support the Dynamo?

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I don't think Miami is going to work. Putting pro sports in Florida always sounds great, but Florida sports fans are interested in three things: the northern team from the city they grew up in, college football, and why the NFL won't give Tebow a chance. I do think it could do well in Minneapolis, St Louis, Detroit, and a few mid-sized cities that don't have multiple pro teams now.

Atlanta and Houston are pretty similar. When you're winning, we've loved you forever. When you're not, we forget you exist. And either way, we care about pro football more than anything else. I'd like the MLS to grow, so maybe I should support the Dynamo, but I really don't. I have become a pretty committed EPL viewer, if that counts for anything.

The U.S. blows @ fútbol because we have sports like the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc....and those sports have a much longer, more rich "American" history.

When you take into account the staggering salaries of professional athletes in just those three sports, it's quite easy to see why we suck @ soccer. In turn, our biggest, fastest, most talented athletes do not play soccer, they play football...or basketball. Because that is where the money, stardom, and opportunities lie. And as a capitalist country, that's what we desire....$$$$$.

It means far more to war torn, struggling countries with dictatorships and mass genocides to win the World Cup. If the U.S. won, we would just have a horrible hangover the next day. Other countries would celebrate until the next World Cup.


Dufrenes, party of 2?