lighting dimmers for element control?

haven't tested it yet but shouldn't a 2000 watt lighting dimmer be able to control the wattage of a 2000 watt heating element? they seem readily available at your local electrical supply house... and being that the element isnt' a motor, the dimmer should be able to control the wattage, i.e. control the temp of a heating element right? i've gotta few laying around so i guess i'll give it a shot... haven't seen anybody use one yet... 2000 watt is about the highest i've seen without going with something more industrial... if it works i will lay it out for yall

It has been discussed... It really isn't practical though. Have never been able to find a dimmer that is over 2000W, and these would be more expensive than a PID and SSR.

The problem is that in a BK you would need to run ULWD elements and I cannot find many under 3500W. Also, in a BK you would need at least (3) 2000w elements to boil the wort. (3) elements, three dimmers... ($280 MIN) would be cheaper and less hassle to use one element, one PID and one SSR. ($100)

EDIT: I presume that the dimmer is single pole? So you are looking at 120v service, at 16.7A for each element... to run a BK you would have to draw about 51A with three elements, compared to 23A with a single 240VAC 5500W element. The 2000W dimmers that I have seen are anywhere from $80-$400... much more expensive than a simple PID/SSR combo.

Try it out though!

The Pol said:

...Also, in a BK you would need at least (3) 2000w elements to boil the wort.

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What makes you say one needs 6,000 watts to boil wort. I get a boil off rate of right at 1 gallon per hour which equates to 2,500 watts neglecting heat losses through the walls of my boil kettle. I haven't bothered to calculate that heat loss yet but I would be shocked to my core to find it greater than the energy required to continuously boil the wort.

ya, you don't need 6kW to boil. It may take a bit to bring it to a boil, but thats up to the person making it and how long they want to wait. My 3.8kW element works very well.

How much heat do you apply to reach the boil?

You can maintain a boil with less, but how long are you going to wait to boil it?

Still, a single dimmer costs as much as a PID, SSR, Heatsink... and it allows you to use more than 2000W

Also, you could not run a 2000W element in a BK, it will scorch the wort because they are not ULWD. So, again, you cant use it in there, will cost more, will take forever to reach a boil...

It will take 40 minutes to get 7.4 gallons to a boil, but then again... if it isnt ULDW, you will start scorching the wort, so it doesnt matter much.

i have seen a rolling boil for 5 gallons accomplished in 20 minutes with 2 1500 watt elements... only on a youtube video... if it's bs or not, i dunno... but as far as price for dimmers goes... for me that's not an issue... 2000 watts at 120 is round 16 amps so each switch would need it's own 20 amp circuit. (also not a problem)... i just had a coupld of 120 element's layin round... no 220's tho... i will give it a try anyway and see how long it takes and to what temp it comes to. if it's not satisfactory i will bite the bullet and actually "buy" a couple of 220 elements and controllers for it. just wondering if the lighting dimmers have been done.

sorry about this question pol, i'm ignorant of ULWD. could u explain plz?

You can reach a boil with (2) 1500W elements in 20 minutes, that is absolutely possible...

ULWD is ultra low watt density... about 50W per square inch of surface area. If you use a standard heating element in a BK, it will have about 150W per square inch of surface area and will scorch the sugars in the wort.

Okay, enough black and white reading if my posts... I know it doesnt take 6000W to reach a boil fellas, cmon. But, if you are going to the trouble to source parts for something like this, it might as well be practical, and 6000W is practical... 4000W is toward the lower end of practical... 2000W is a little impractical. IMHO

Dimmers have not been done, for the reasons I listed. I am in the middle of converting my HERMS to all electric as well, been through all sorts of crazy ideas.

makes sense... you obviously have more experience in this than me. i appreciate your input. moreover i appreciate you helping me put the safety back on before i shoot in the dark

And dimmers are usually the exact same thing as the element. Resistance. And all that heat when you tune the dimmer down has to go somewhere. I'd think there would be a hell of a heatsink on a 2000W dimmer.

I was doing some back of the napkin calculations after reading through your recent heating element thread Pol. Neglecting heat loss through the walls of the BK, you can get 6.75 gallons of wort from 170F to 212 in 17 minutes with 2,500 watts.

yeau, you have to have a 2gang box for a 2000 wt single pole dimmer.. big heat sink on that one

ChemE said:

I was doing some back of the napkin calculations after reading through your recent heating element thread Pol. Neglecting heat loss through the walls of the BK, you can get 6.75 gallons of wort from 170F to 212 in 17 minutes with 2,500 watts.

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True, but most runoff by the time it hits the kettle is 150-155F in my limited experience.

The Pol said:

True, but most runoff by the time it hits the kettle is 150-155F in my limited experience.

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See, I'm going to totally defer to you on this one. Your limited experience vastly exceeds my own!

I try to resist posting unless I know, that I know, what I am about to say. I work like 10 days a month, maybe... the rest of my time is spent researching brewing, equipment and designing it.

I keep a thermometer in my kettle as I sparge, and I have not seen it come above 155F while I sparge. I mashout at 168F and I run 170F sparge water, and I still get 155F in the kettle.

free time is somthing i have very little of.. i'm glad i posted this thread

I have gobs of it... annoys the hell out of my stay at home SWMBO. Except when I am painting her walls for her. So, I have to balance HBT and working on my brew rig, with doing her deeds... so she doesnt get testy!

Yeah but all the free time in the world still doesn't make up for rotting on the tarmac in ORD for hours because AA can't find you a gate (like they didn't know you were coming). I don't know how you stand it man. I only take around 80 flights a year and I despise it.

Dude, I love it... $80 an hour, I will sit on the tarmac!

At 80 bones an hour, I can see why you only need to work 1/3 of the month.

I get paid for 4 weeks of work though... it is guarantee pay. The past 6 months I have flown 180 hours total... but been paid for about 500.

Well I suppose there is that. I get the same per hour whether I'm lounging in the lap of luxury back in coach (hehe) or eating a steak at Mortons.

ORD is bad... but JFK and LGA are worse. I have spent 4-5 hours on the taxiway in JFK, waiting to make a 60 minute flight to DC. I sketch up ideas at those times too!

Now you just need to perfect a miniature AG cockpit brewing system with one of those small coffee urns. You could knock out a batch while waiting for takeoff.

True true... how to get THAT through security.... hmmm

I have to chime in on this discussion of controling your element. When I initially got into homebrewing I bought a made in England Brewing Bucket that ran off of a 220v. Controling the element was a device called a simmerstat. It worked by cycling your element on and off the higher the setting the longer it stayed on. The element was a 2500 watt element and I was able to bring a 6 gallon bucket of water to boil in 45 minutes.

I have used this bucket for the last several years but early this year I started to think about a replacement / backup. I did some research and found out that a like product (Simmerstat) was sold in United States under the name
Simmerstat® Regulator or Cycling Timer. I was able to track down a supplier in Rock Island, Il who sold me one for $50.00. I then took the simmerstat and hooked the wires to a 3000 Low Watt Density 220v element and mounted it to a 32 qt aluminum pot. Made a mounting box to house the simmerstat and so far have made 20 batches with my new invention. I must say it works great. Can boil 6 gallons of water in 30 minutes and I have yet to have a bad batch.

So to sum things up if you are interested in a down and dirty kettle to boil your wort I'd look into something like this. I am in the process of upgrading to a 42 qt kettle and can't wait to try it out.

For what its worth the simmerstat ratings are 15 amps-200/250VAC or 15 amps-100/125VAC. So it could be used with a 110. If you are interested in the wiring diagram I have posted it on my profile.

All told I have less than $100.00 dolars in my kettle. Of course I did upgrade and put a weldless thermometer in it and put indicator lights on it so I know when I am hot and power is going to the element.

Simmerstat Web Site.
Simmerstat® Regulator or Cycling Timer
Ogden Products-Thermostats

If you have questions feel free to ask.

TD

TDiowa, that is great information, and thanks for posting the wiring diagram.

Do you happen to have any pics of your actual setup?

cyberbackpacker said:

TDiowa, that is great information, and thanks for posting the wiring diagram.

Do you happen to have any pics of your actual setup?

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+1 pics please

looks like a good way to go, although i am having a bit of trouble finding a retailer. most of the one's i've found online are overseas. iv'e just obtained 2 4500 watt low density elements and i've got a free 60 amp disconnect in my garage. havne't tested the dimmer yet but with all the info i've gatherd... y bother with that weak sauce

I am just about done with my 42 qt kettle. I will get take some pictures and get them up on Friday. If you are interested I also post the address of the vendor who I bought the simmerstat through.

TD

i'm interested

z987k said:

And dimmers are usually the exact same thing as the element. Resistance. And all that heat when you tune the dimmer down has to go somewhere. I'd think there would be a hell of a heatsink on a 2000W dimmer.

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Dimmers are not resistance elements. There's no way the electrical code would allow you to put up to 2000W heat dissipation into a small metal box inside your wall. They simply to change the firing angle of a triac or thyristor to chop the duty cycle of the input current. This accomplishes the same thing without wasting electricity and creating a fire hazard.

As long as the dimmer is rated for the voltage required and the power, I see no reason why it wouldn't work. What it will do is change the wattage that the element puts out on a continual basis, rather than an on/off switching of the element. It would be harder to control than the PID and SSR but it could be done I think.

You can do it...

But those dimmers are more expensive than a PID, SSR and heat sink combined.

They can only control 2000W

You cannot buy an ULWD 2000W element for use in a BK

It would work, but I dont know what you would use it for with the above restrictions.

i've installed several dimmers of that size in establishments before and the inspecter passed it just fine so i'm pretty sure it's not a code violation... they're rather large and take up a 2 gang box and have a large heat sink... http://electricalsupplies4less.stores.yahoo.net/lutatsiinrod3.html i just had a couple laying around the shop for FREE so i was wondering if it was worth the time and effort to see if they worked on heating elements... just didn't want to hook it all up to the dimmer and then act like a flourescent acts when on a dimmer... they flicker. and elements do operate by resistance soooooo technically it should work

Seems like we all keep repeating ourselves in this thread.

Post Whores!

The Pol said:

Seems like we all keep repeating ourselves in this thread.

Post Whores!

Click to expand...

Am NOT! Neener neener boo boo!

Me either.........

I am interested in element controls because I am taking a different path with my electric BK than most.

I have a ceramic cooktop range that is too inefficient to do 5 gallon AG batches. So, in addition to my electric cooktop I am going to use a 5500 ULWD element in my BK wired to 120 vac to produce 1375 watts. This element, in addition to the ceramic cooktop, will make my 5 gallon batches much more manageable.

Additionally, once my basement is arranged in such a way that it is feasible to brew in, then I already have my 5500 watt element in place I can use on my 220 vac feed down there.

Now, that would work... using it to control essentially a heat stick would work.

Exactly what I am thinking...