Two Ruined Batches! I need your help.

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

meangreen83

Active Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
38
Reaction score
1
Location
La Jolla
The title says it all. I've been brewing for over three years without any problems, until now. I made the following beer twice with the same result.

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/11/ipa-clone-series-firestone-walker.html

17.75lbs 2-Row
2.5lbs Munich
5oz Simpsons Caramalt (I used carastan 35L)
Mash @ 145 for 60 min then 155F for 10 min
2oz Warrior @ 90
1oz ea Centennial/Cascade/Chinook @ 30
2.5oz ea Centennial/Cascade @ 0
WLP002 - English Ale Yeast - 1 gallon starter (I pitched 3 vials instead of making a starter)

Dry Hop 1: .5oz ea Centennial/Cascade
Dry Hop 2: .5oz ea Centennial/Cascade/Amarillo/Simcoe
Dry Hop 3: .5oz ea Centennial/Cascade
Dry Hop 4: .5oz ea Centennial/Cascade .25oz ea Amarillo/Simcoe
3-4 days per addition (I never added the dry hops since in tasted terrible)

I scaled it down to five gallons and hit both gravities. However, the hydrometer sample after a week tastes absolutely terrible. It almost tastes like peat or dirt. It is so strong that I can not even taste the beer.

I'll explain my setup and procedure.

I do an all-grain BIAB using the High Gravity electric brewery (http://blog.highgravitybrew.com/2013/07/high-gravity-has-a-brew-in-a-bag-electric-brewing-system/). I start with R/O water from the Vonn's down the street and add 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride and 1 teaspoon of calcium sulfate. The temperature is maintained within 1-3 degrees of 145 for 60 minutes then raised to 155 for 10 minutes. I squeeze the hell out of the grains after the mash to get every drop out. Afterwards I cool the wort down quickly with a plate chiller and pitched the three vials of 002. The temperature is maintained between 63-67 in a chest freezer. I hit the OG dead on and the FG after 6 days. However, when I tasted the hydrometer sample it is absolutely aweful. I thought it was a fluke the first time, but I am really worried since the second batch tastes identical to the first.

If anyone has any ideas I would appreciate the help. I've wasted a considerable amount of money and time of these two batches of beer and I am hesitant to make any more until I have this figured out.

Does anyone have any idea, or heard of a batch of homebrew with a terribly pungent peaty taste and smell?
 
Did you try it pre/post boil and was the taste there?
If it wasn't id lean towards sanitation past the kettle or maybe something left in the ro water. What's your water source (city, well, spring, ect)? What do you use for sanitizer? How old is the ro filters?
 
If its not water or infection, could it be the ingredients? Did you use the same ingredients source for both batches? Could you have some bad malt, or nasty hops or something?
 
"However, when I tasted the hydrometer sample it is absolutely aweful."

What does that mean, can you describe the flavor?

Sorry, I missed the Peaty taste and smell. OK I have no idea, but that may fade over time.
 
Are you doing a sparge?
Are supposed to squeeze the wort out of the grain or is there a risk of tannin extraction? (I'm asking as I don't do BIAB)
I would think a 170 degree sparge of the grains would be better than squeezing them.?:confused:
What was the hydrometer reading when you tasted it? Maybe it just needs more time.
Just spit balling here.
 
if it tasted like dirt then my guess is something is dirty. either crap in your hoses, chiller, or kettle. i'd run a good cleaner through it for a few minutes with nice warm water. rust can make a brew taste like dirt.
 
If its not water or infection, could it be the ingredients? Did you use the same ingredients source for both batches? Could you have some bad malt, or nasty hops or something?

I did buy everthing from the same brewshop two weeks apart. I was thinking after the first batch that I might have accidentally grabbed some kind of peated malt. I'm thinking about asking to the brew shop if anyone else has experienced this recently, but they will probably blow me off.
 
"However, when I tasted the hydrometer sample it is absolutely aweful."

What does that mean, can you describe the flavor?

Like band-aids, or antiseptic?

I've went through the flavor wheel (http://morebeer.com/content/homebrew-off-flavors) and it doesn't match anything I can find online. It is almost like the taste you get in your mouth when you are following too close to a car driving down a dirt road. It is a pungent dirty or dusty flavor. I really want to find an experienced homebrewer in the San Diego area that will smell or taste it. My palate may be missing something obvious.
 
Are you doing a sparge?
Are supposed to squeeze the wort out of the grain or is there a risk of tannin extraction? (I'm asking as I don't do BIAB)
I would think a 170 degree sparge of the grains would be better than squeezing them.?:confused:
What was the hydrometer reading when you tasted it? Maybe it just needs more time.
Just spit balling here.

I've heard that the tannic taste from squeezing grains is more of a homebrew urban legend. I've also squeezed the hell out of them before with great results. The gravity has dropped completely by the time I tasted it. The hydrometer sample is still setting on my counter and the taste hasn't faded in three days.
 
if it tasted like dirt then my guess is something is dirty. either crap in your hoses, chiller, or kettle. i'd run a good cleaner through it for a few minutes with nice warm water. rust can make a brew taste like dirt.

I'm leaning toward this also. There is a black film on my heating element which could be the source. I will probably circulate some hot water and PBW through the system this weekend.
 
The first batch that tasted bad, is it bottled/kegged and fully conditioned? I have never had an IPA hydrometer sample taste good, it could be that the beer is still green. My palate never interprets the flavor as "dirty" as much as astringently bitter, that's just me though. And it always ages out for me in about three weeks.
 
My guess is dealing with the fantastic quantity of hops gave you the pungent peaty character in the hydro sample and it will get good with time. This is particularly true if there is still yeast in suspension as the hop oils in highly hoped beers tend to stick to the yeast. I love double jack but living on the East Coast doubt I have ever had a super fresh bottle. I think the beer is designed mellow in the bottle a bit before drinking. The commercial product is always super clear too so again if there was any cloudiness in your hydro sample the punch of the hops may be much more pronounced than it will be after the beer drops bright.

Have you brewed other super highly hopped beers? How does the flavor of the hydro sample of those compare to this?

I am curious about how you managed that quantity of hop trub. Did it go through to the fermenter or filtered out?
 
You might try chewing a few of the grains from the bin at the LHBS; some bright person may have poured a peated malt into the wrong bin.

I usually use 1 to 2 tsp of Burton Salts. I am not sure how much Calcium Chloride or Calcium Sulfate that would equate too. Do you always use the same water treatment? Your 3 years of brewing would indicate you have your procedures down. But I figure it is worth asking.

I would give the beer three or 4 weeks and see if that clears up the off taste. It could be that six days is just not long enough on the primary. I leave most beers 3 to 5 weeks on the primary.
 
I was also going to suggest talking to your LHBS about their ingredients until I saw this. I think you've found your culprit! PBW the crap out of everything and brew something you don't mind losing next. I bet that'll get you back on track.

TOTALLY!

Nothing better to give you that "peaty" flavor than some charred wort from your heating element. :D (mmmm, burnt sugar is soo tasty)
 
TOTALLY!

Nothing better to give you that "peaty" flavor than some charred wort from your heating element. :D (mmmm, burnt sugar is soo tasty)

Mmmmmm Caramel...

We use warm water and BPW or Arm and Hammer Super Wash Soda to clean our RIMS system. We run it through for the length of the boil. After rinsing a couple of times we pull out the element and it usually has a little remaining "caramel" on it but it wipes right off. We then disconnect all our down hill connections and let the water totally drain out. Open the pump and let it drain too as it's at the lowest spot. We started doing this after funky smells in the water when filling the mash tun.

Since doing this we have had no more funk. We pre heat the mash tun now and circulate the water through the system and smell it before we drain it and then start the mash. Thought it might be a good idea in case something crawled into a line! No more funk beer for us!
 
The first batch that tasted bad, is it bottled/kegged and fully conditioned? I have never had an IPA hydrometer sample taste good, it could be that the beer is still green. My palate never interprets the flavor as "dirty" as much as astringently bitter, that's just me though. And it always ages out for me in about three weeks.

The sample was after 1 week and directly from the secondary. I always try my hydrometer samples from IPA and they usually taste fine. I don't think this is a flavor that is going to fade since it is completely overwhelming. I just a good swig from the first batch and nearly vomitted. It was absolutely terrible. I won't dump this second batch but if the taste doesn't subside I am not going to waste the dry hops.
 
My guess is dealing with the fantastic quantity of hops gave you the pungent peaty character in the hydro sample and it will get good with time. This is particularly true if there is still yeast in suspension as the hop oils in highly hoped beers tend to stick to the yeast. I love double jack but living on the East Coast doubt I have ever had a super fresh bottle. I think the beer is designed mellow in the bottle a bit before drinking. The commercial product is always super clear too so again if there was any cloudiness in your hydro sample the punch of the hops may be much more pronounced than it will be after the beer drops bright.

Have you brewed other super highly hopped beers? How does the flavor of the hydro sample of those compare to this?

I am curious about how you managed that quantity of hop trub. Did it go through to the fermenter or filtered out?

I've brewed with more hops than this with no problems. I am careful to purge the carboy after fermentation with CO2 to avoid oxidation. I use a muslin bag for the hops but there definitely a large amount of trub in the carboy. One way I avoid this is to use hop extract for any bittering hop. I picked this up from the Bertus blog.
 
For the next batch I am going to do the following.
1. By R/O water from a different source. I'm going to avoid the Glacier style vendors outside of grocery stores and try to find some gallon jugs.
2. I'm going to clean the hell out of my entire system, including the heating element. That baby is going to shine before my next attempt.
3. I'm going to test the starch conversion over the course of the mash and I don't plan on stopping until it is complete.

I'll be damned if I don't have a keg of Double Jack in my fridge within a month! Thanks for the help everyone.
 
I'll bet your water supply has picked up some chloromines somehow. You can eliminate or confirm that by buying water for your next batch. Make sure it is either RO water or thoroughly charcoal filtered. I've found that the drinking water sold out of the water vending machines at our supermarket is excellent and only $1.50 for 5 gal.

I had the same issue last spring and ended up dumping 6 batches. Water supplies can change over time.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew
 
I'll bet your water supply has picked up some chloromines somehow. You can eliminate or confirm that by buying water for your next batch. Make sure it is either RO water or thoroughly charcoal filtered. I've found that the drinking water sold out of the water vending machines at our supermarket is excellent and only $1.50 for 5 gal.

I had the same issue last spring and ended up dumping 6 batches. Water supplies can change over time.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

6 batches? That scares the hell out of me. I lost sleep the night after my second batch went bad. I actually have this posted elsewhere on HBT and mystery shrimp just posted this. We might have figured this out.

Originally Posted by mysteryshrimp View Post
145 isn't that low as long as your thermometer is accurate. I've gone down as low as 140 when I wanted a super dry beer. It's not the mash temp. I don't have the heating element directly in contact with my beer, though. If there is a protein buildup, it could be a problem.

+1 for possibly over-extraction of your grains.

You also could have an infected line or a small mold problem in your chiller. Are your carboys glass or plastic?

If it's a problem with your water, it's probably this guy: http://www.aroxa.com/beer/beer-flavour-standard/2-methylisoborneol/
Holy s*@t! I think this is it! I circulate very hot wort through my plate chiller for 10 minutes before I turn the water on, so I think if I had any mold in the chiller it would be destroyed fairly quickly. The description of 2-methylisoborneol fits what I am smelling from my hydrometer samples.

Conveniently, I am an organic synthetic chemist and I work for a large pharmaceutical company. I'm going to check our inventory tomorrow and see if we have any 2-methylisoborneol. I doubt we have it, as it doesn't appear that useful, but there is a chance.

Thank you mysteryshrimp!
 
Interesting! I hadn't heard of 2-Methylisoborneol (MIB) before. From some of the (very brief, not-at-all-coming-from-a-place-of-experience-so-tell-me-to-shut-up-if-I'm-wrong) reading I've done, it seems like MIB is due to microorganisms (algae) in the water supply, and the MIB and its odor is the result of their interaction with other compounds or death. This suggests that your source water itself would have this odor to it. Can you smell it in your tap water?

Or perhaps the microorganisms are getting into your beer after the boil, which means if you're using a sanitizing solution that requires a rinse, you're just reintroducing the microorganisms to your tools and wort when you rinse. Hm. It's an interesting thing to rule out. Maybe you can call your city water supply and ask about this, or if they test for this?
 
Interesting! I hadn't heard of 2-Methylisoborneol (MIB) before. From some of the (very brief, not-at-all-coming-from-a-place-of-experience-so-tell-me-to-shut-up-if-I'm-wrong) reading I've done, it seems like MIB is due to microorganisms (algae) in the water supply, and the MIB and its odor is the result of their interaction with other compounds or death. This suggests that your source water itself would have this odor to it. Can you smell it in your tap water?

Or perhaps the microorganisms are getting into your beer after the boil, which means if you're using a sanitizing solution that requires a rinse, you're just reintroducing the microorganisms to your tools and wort when you rinse. Hm. It's an interesting thing to rule out. Maybe you can call your city water supply and ask about this, or if they test for this?

I purchased the R/O water from a Glacier dispenser outside of a grocery store. I didn't taste the water prior to the mash, so I can't be absolutely sure it was there. I know I did taste it a few times during the boil and I did not notice the smell or taste. I did use water from my faucet to make the sanitizer solution that I use for the carboy, but I don't taste it in my tap water. I am going to ask the manager at the grocery store if they have had any complaints recently. I'm going to buy the R/O water from a new source and use it for everything including the sanitizer.

I hadn't heard of 2-MIB until now and it doesn't show up on any searches in HBT, so this isn't a common problem.
 
How clear is the wort?

I brewed this same recipe, the first hydro sample was chalky/grainy/****ty from all of the hop materal and yeast etc.

Two days later after intense cold crashing and gelatin the beer was crystal clear and tasted incredible.
 
How clear is the wort?

I brewed this same recipe, the first hydro sample was chalky/grainy/****ty from all of the hop materal and yeast etc.

Two days later after intense cold crashing and gelatin the beer was crystal clear and tasted incredible.

I stopped short of adding gelatin and cold crashing these two beers but they both cleared up really nicely. If I had went ahead with it they would have been crystal clear. I tasted the beer again this morning and it was putrid.....:mad: I'm going to dump it and clean the carboy later today.
 
I gave my entire set-up a thorough cleansing and it seems that my heating element was dirtier than I thought. What I thought was a thin black film ended up being a cake of char. My plastic brush didn't touch it so I upgraded to a wire brush, which still didn't do the job. I ended up scraping it with sand paper for 45 minutes before it looked like new. I'm going to bet this imparted some nastiness to my last couple brews.
 
I gave my entire set-up a thorough cleansing and it seems that my heating element was dirtier than I thought. What I thought was a thin black film ended up being a cake of char. My plastic brush didn't touch it so I upgraded to a wire brush, which still didn't do the job. I ended up scraping it with sand paper for 45 minutes before it looked like new. I'm going to bet this imparted some nastiness to my last couple brews.

I dry fired my RIMS element - a 2kw ULWD unit - without any consequences. Heated it up until it started smoking and the brushed off the residue after it cooled down. It's a resistored element that can supposedly take it and I've brewed a batch since.
 
After mashing we heat a few gallons of water to 150 degrees or so and add Brewery Wash or Super Wash Soda and recirculate it during the boil. After the wort's in the fermenter we rinse the system a couple of times and then disconnect all the hoses, open the pump up and remove the element. It's usually clean or just needs wiped down. We have it on during the cleaning cycle.
We started doing this after the first time we just left the water in there till the next brew day. 3 months later we had this aweful funk smell in the hot liquor. Had to clean and rinse a couple of times before we got rid of the smell. Leaving it open to dry has seemed to work the best since we only get to brew maybe 6 times a year.
 
meangreen83, I know this is late in the thread, but I absolutely agree with a couple of the others. It sounds like you burned the wort. I did a concoction once and over cooked the wort. After all was kegged, it tastes like dirt. I ruined a perfect Bock. There's no way to save it.

Lesson learned: burned wort is nasty!



Cheers,
 
I gave my entire set-up a thorough cleansing and it seems that my heating element was dirtier than I thought. What I thought was a thin black film ended up being a cake of char. My plastic brush didn't touch it so I upgraded to a wire brush, which still didn't do the job. I ended up scraping it with sand paper for 45 minutes before it looked like new. I'm going to bet this imparted some nastiness to my last couple brews.

Right on! I am thinking your problems in this area are probably solved.
 
Back
Top