What it takes to go PRO! ? !

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

madbird1977

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2011
Messages
205
Reaction score
3
Location
Madison
Okay, I'm a novice homebrewer but kinda already have the bug that I want to do this someday as a profession. Maybe start as a nano brewer, then if it works out a brewpub...

So for those that do work in the brewing industry what is the best path to take?

Education: Siebel? Other programs?
Get a job working at a brewpub, cleaning and asking questions?

For a nano brewery; is it easier to get started or is it the same as a full fledge brewery?

I know this is very general and I've got a few brews in me but just interested in hearing what others have done. I've got a ton of research to do, I know but this forum is a great starting point to get me going in the right direction...I hope! :)
 
technically, all you need is a liquor license to produce for sale. Laws vary by state - in NY it is simply a matter of paying a fee and waiting 6 months for the piece of paper in the mail... I think. All your state wants is their share of the tax you will owe them on sales. Then you need someone to buy your beer... someone who doesn't care if their commercial beer distributor gets miffed that a tap is being taken up by something they aren't selling. So, basically you need to open your own bar too.

BEFORE all of that, though, you will need to produce great beer consistently.
 
Find out the local laws........if there is no restriction on self-distribution all you need is a microbrew license and someone willing to put your beer on tap/on shelves.

http://blindbatbrewery.com/

This guy, in NY, brews in his garage on a 3bbl system. Keeps his day job, and is on tap and in stores locally. Unfortunately MI isn't that easy, thats why we havent gotten there yet. Anyone know of investors?? haha
 
Talk to local restaurants and places that sell bottled brews and get a feel for their interest. If you don't have an outlet then it's going to be tough to get started. I think starting small and growing as sales grow is the way to go but it depends on the interest people have in your brews.
Like others have said, look into the local laws pertaining to a microbrewery and go from there. :mug:
 
Money is the main reason most people don't "go pro." As far as Siebel goes, it is very expensive and the one guy I met that went there told me you're probably better off with real life experience working for a micro brewery like an intern. Starting a nano brewery is popular now as its cheaper equipment wise and may help get you a loan for a 7-10bbl system if you're already established and invested yourself. With the popularity of craft/micro brew, you can't get used equipment cheap like you could 10 yrs ago.
 
You don't "need" Seibel if you are a good brewer and want to open your own. If you want to work for a large brewery, then Siebel can help. Or if you really want to know more about brewing.

The biggest thing is to be able to afford to get a license and run a business. It takes more than good brewing to have a successful brewery. It takes patience, a lot of money, and the willingness to work a LOT of hours.
 
Even though I am new to brewing I have thought about what it would take to do a brewpub or brewery and the number one thing (besides money) is consistency. You will need to prove that you can make the same beer over and over and over, having it with little to no difference between each batch. The main issue I can see with this is the suppliers that you would need to buy from. You would need to make sure that the malts used are the same each time. If you order 2-row from one vendor on the first batch and then from another on the second, you could potentially end up with different tastes.

This is just an example and probably not the best, but you should get the idea. Even if you keep your procedure 99.9% exact every time, your beer can turn out different if the base products used to make it are different.

-Stanley
 
You'd be surprised how often smaller micro brewers will change or tweak a recipe. I only say this because my brother works for one and they are often modifying recipes, even the ones they bottle. Any "mistake" batch can be renamed or add a fruit flavor to it and be a "limited" brew. Now I can't say this is true for wider distributed beers. They only run a 10bbl system right now.

Although you're still right. You need at least 2-4 consistent well made beers to start. You don't want any deviation from your flagship brews.
 
Thanks for the input so far. I may morph my idea a bit. In reality this will take me 3-5 years anyways so I have time to work on the brewery part of it. So I think I'd rather start a craft brew bar in my area.

That way I can learn more about regional beers (I'd like to keep it mainly to WI brews - stay local folks and support them primarily) and what sells well. then if I ever can afford to move to the brewery phase try that out. This way, its baby steps and I may be better off financially not investing in all the brewing equipment at least.

Its fun to dream is it? Better to live it tho. :)
 
I would say start writing a business plan. Once you start looking at numbers to operate a brewpub it's a little scary how much investment capital you need to get something off the ground. I have managed kitchens for years (I have business and culinary degrees) and really understand the culinary side of the brewpub. If you can't dedicate 80-90 a week on the food side of it the labor to operate will eat you alive. I'm not saying it can't be done....but it is a sh1tload of work and a risky business. I crunched numbers for weeks while writing my business plan and I estimated to open an 80 seat brewpub with a small menu and a 4 barrel system it would take approx 550,000 to get everything off the ground properly. Scary numbers....I think your idea of the craft brew bar is the way to go. You add food to the idea and it's a whole other ball of wax.....good luck to you....I know we have all had this idea at one time or another.
 
yeah, I would love to take food out of the equation in general. I think in WI you can still serve pizza and so forth without a full kitchen/license. I'd rather do something like that. Snacks/apps/chips/etc and just damn good beer. Let the surrounding local food places deliver or bring in to the bar. Not sure of the regulations. I've been reading the tavern league/WI state license info and may just have to get a lawyer to explain it to me ... :)
 
I would guess that your time and money would be much better spent in business school than brewing school.
 
Good point in Business school, I already have that degree in Marketing and have heard that experience in a brewpub might just be better. I think I will work on getting a parttime job bartending again and see if I can get in good with the brewmaster. Start volunteering to help, watch, listen and learn without adding additional work for them.
 
Good point in Business school, I already have that degree in Marketing and have heard that experience in a brewpub might just be better. I think I will work on getting a parttime job bartending again and see if I can get in good with the brewmaster. Start volunteering to help, watch, listen and learn without adding additional work for them.

Just out of curiosity how many batches have you brewed so far and what level of brewing are you doing. What type of beer are you making, are you doing all grain, what's your favorite recipe, etc?

Also I've never heard of a brewpub that didn't also serve food so if you ever get to the point where this is a serious idea you are almost certainly going to want to re-think that.
 
Ive been dreaming the same thing for about a year and just started as an assistant brewer at a local brewpub. There is no way I would start any kind of brewery without working in a brewery first. Im learning a hell of a lot, and getting an education will only help you learn more. Then, you can find a partner who knows the business side, and you can do the beer side. When it comes to money you dont have to have half a million to give out of your own pocket. U make a business plan and sell your idea to investors. Its hard work... but not as hard as saving ~$500,000. When looking at getting an education in brewing I looked at Siebel and ABG, and ABG seemed like the same amount of education for cheaper. Plus, I dont have to quit my job to go back to school. Im doing their distance education program. Cant Wait
 
i have kind of had the same ideas, we have been trying to find financing for a local bowling alley, no takers yet, have a good business plan, would be awesome to incorporate my own brews into the bowling alley, and small restaurant. i could spin off cool names for my brews using bowling alley terms, such as "pinsetter pale ale", "gutter ball brown ale", and so forth. unfortunately i am financially challenged, bad credit, not good when trying to get a business loan. i do have a solid plan though. good luck. this bowling alley has been closed for 2 years now, 80 grand is the asking price. i figure around 150 to get it back up and running with some startup capital remaining. i'm still gonna keep trying. good luck to you and your ventures down this road.
 
Someone had a similar question http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3110 and the quoted post pretty much sums it up:

Brewing beer is enormously expensive, commercially or at home.

If all you are counting is input costs such as grain, hops, water and yeast, it is no wonder that you think brewing a batch of beer is cheaper than buying a case of beer.

At the home brew level of five gallons, add to the input costs, the costs of energy to brew the batch, to chill the wort, to control fermentation temperatures, to condition the beer, to bottle the beer...

the costs of your equipment divided by the number of batches you have made... plus any interest payments...

and rent for the space involved...

and finally, your labor: 1 hour to purchase ingredients and plan the brew... 6+ hours to brew... 1 hour to rack... 2 hours to bottle... what is your labor worth? $6.00/hour??? $16.00/hour??? That's 10 hours of labor. $60 minimum and $160 maximum, just for labor.

add up all of the costs and we're talking about nearly $100 to $200 for a five gallon batch of homebrew, 2 cases of beer that retail at $35 each, $70.00...

and at home you don't have to worry about the costs of selling the beer...

and you think that is profitable???

now make similar calculations for the commercial scale: the bigger the system, the more efficiently the beer is produced, but also the greater the size of the loan and the greater the amount of interest being paid... and the greater the difficulty in reaching breakeven volumes of sales which for a twenty barrel wholesale brewery can run minimum at 2400 - 3000 barrels of beer a year... not an easy amount of beer to sell in your first, second, third or fourth year...

Hundreds of thousands of dollars for a new brewing system at 5 - 10% annual interest... meaning that over time you are paying maybe twice as much for the equipment plus the costs of servicing the loan...

thousands of dollars in energy costs per month...

$1 to $3 plus per square foot for commercial property; wholesale production being much cheaper than brewpub, but also garnering far less in sales dollars...
2000 - 6000 square feet...

excise taxes... $7 per barrel federal, $6.20 per barrel in the state of California... 4.25 cents per gallon... plus sales tax in the brewpub, 29 cents on a $4 pint of beer...

labor costs: production, wholesale, bartenders, waitstaff, management, bookkeeper, janitor, cooks, etc.

legal fees... marketing fees... delivery costs... packaging... brewery insurance... workmen's compensation... health insurance... accounting costs... etc., etc.

we haven't even pointed out owner compensation for risking hundreds of thousands of dollars, having the plan to begin with and putting in endless hours of work...

In short, it is very difficult to make a profit in this industry. Why do you think that after 25 years, there are only ~1400 micros/brewpubs??? Fewer now, than there were even five years ago??? Even the big guys over the last 25 years have thinned out a lot.

Admittedly, some owners underpay or seemingly undervalue their brewers, but that's only because they are under such enormous financial pressures and constrictions to make their operations work at all... but, most owners are paying whatever they can, in line with the market and in lieu of the competition's costs...

I suggest that if you are a brewer you are in it for only one or two possible reasons: (1) that you love the craft and money is not important, or (2) that some day you intend on making money in this industry. If the latter, then you probably aspire to be an owner some day and it would behoove you to make some comprehensive calculations regarding the operating and overhead costs of a brewing and sales operation. I would start with the operation that you are currently working in... Only after you have made thorough calculations will you be in a position to discuss with authority the pay rates of brewers. Believe me, you will appreciate the owner more at that point and he will appreciate you for trying to understand the position he is in...

I have been both a brewer and an owner and have been on both sides of the argument.

Generally speaking, the employees know almost nothing of what they are talking about. I personally had brewers and sales people that had ownership positions in the company, and they still refused to look at the numbers and cooperate with management. They complained of not making enough money, but they all took home more than me, rarely worked a full 40 hour week and were paid more than most on the average in the industry. I, meanwhile, worked 80 - 100+ hours a week and brought home between $3.75 and $4.68 an hour. Ultimately, my business failed because our overhead and production costs were too high and I simply could not find the last investment capital I needed post 9-11. I lost fourteen years of my career as a result.

Find out what it truly means to be in the business of brewing before you commit to this career and before you criticize owners. Against the likes of Anhueser-Busch, SABMiller and Molson-Coors, plus a host of mega-imports, the competition is truly daunting and truly fierce.

No owner likes a whiny brewer.

Hate me if you like, but someone had to say it. I am doing brewers a favor by pointing out the true costs of a brewery, like it or not. Do your homework.

Granted the numbers might not be 100%, brewing at home to me isn't relatively expensive, that plus you throw in the pub (food) side of the brewpub and your costs increase moreso. Research is going to be massive on this one, finding a viable location, a business degree and a solid knowledge of pubs/bars/diner etc operations would also help. I didn't quote this to shoot you down or anything, it's just the reality of regulation and starting a business.

Also, take the post with a grain of salt, I'm mostly providing it as a reference for some of the good major points he makes. I'm not endorsing the entire post.
 
Again great feedback. Drath good post. I've been somewhat on that same page. I have an issue with always seeing both side of the story and it sometimes makes me think twice, three times, heck four. :)

Its going to be a while before I can get things rolling. But I have hope to try to get a craft brew pub going then someday just plop a few cornys in there of my stuff. I'm just getting into batch # 6 so yes, very early. However I've only started a few months ago. Ran out of weekends and carboys. :) Anyways, I do want to get back in the business (used to bartend) and would like to get a chance to volunteer at any local brewery (WI) so if anyone knows of anything please give a shout.

I'm inspired and honestly I haven't had a hobby since i can remember, that makes me really WANT this. I might just homebrew forever but I'm going to keep making great beer and sharing it with others. I'll do the corporate gig for as long as I can but in parallel try my best to get a side biz going or just learn as much as possible.
 
another issue is the potential destruction of a loved hobby. Once something you love to do becomes a job that you have to do, it stops being a hobby, and potentially stops being even a little bit fun.

Do you like sex? would you be a porn star?
 
I have a friend who owns a winery and is thinking about getting his brewing license (already selling craft beer in bottles). One thing he's talked about is to absolutely NOT worry about being consistent with the beers! They have a "brand" of wine that are blends and they market them as they change.

I believe in that type setting, unique beers would be as great a seller as their unique wines are!

I "hope" I have the opportunity to work with him on this.. how awesome would that be?
 
another issue is the potential destruction of a loved hobby. Once something you love to do becomes a job that you have to do, it stops being a hobby, and potentially stops being even a little bit fun.

Do you like sex? would you be a porn star?

Unlike brewing, I know I don't have the "skillset" to make it in porn. But just to be sure, I better do some more research... :cross:



P.S. - GREAT post Drath! I really need to have that on cut/paste readiness.
 
Back
Top