ATC Refractometer - has anyone checked?

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Walker

I use secondaries. :p
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I am using an ATC Refractometer that I got off ebay for about $30 last winter. When I got it, I calibrated it (with my tap water) and things seemed to be working fine. I know you are "supposed" to calibrate with RO water, but I figure that since I brew with my tap water, then I should calibrate with my tap water since my tap water is what I want to consider "0".

Anyway.... My last few batches have been coming up short on OG and I had been chalking it up to me still being on the learning curve with my new system.

However, when cleaning up after a brew session Sunday night I happened to look through the refractometer with just tap water on it and found that it was reading BELOW 0 Brix. There's no scale below zero, but I estimate that it was at about -1.3 Brix.

Thinking that my calibration was simply off, I took the thing into the house with me and started typing an email to a friend who had also used it that night to let him know that the thing was reading badly.

I looked through it again to make sure it was really off by -1.3 so I could give him a better idea about how badly it was off , but the thing was reading apprixiately -0.2... same water that I had just saw reading -1.3... All I did was carry it into the house from the garage. WTF?

So, I took it back out to the garage and sat it on the workbench for about 10 minutes and looked through it again. Back at -1.3.

Thinking back when I got it, it was winter and the house would have been at about 68*F. That was the temp it was at when I calibrated, but it looks like my "ATC" doesn't work for ****.

0.0 @ 68*F (ambient temp when calibrated in winter)
-0.2 @ 78*F (ambient temp of house now in summer)
-1.3 @ 92*F (ambient temp of garage when I brewed)

Has anyone else actually checked to see if their ATC refractometer is really correcting the temp properly? An error of 1.3 Brix is pretty significant, IMO.
 
I am using an ATC Refractometer that I got off ebay for about $30 last winter. When I got it, I calibrated it (with my tap water) and things seemed to be working fine. I know you are "supposed" to calibrate with RO water, but I figure that since I brew with my tap water, then I should calibrate with my tap water since my tap water is what I want to consider "0".

Anyway.... My last few batches have been coming up short on OG and I had been chalking it up to me still being on the learning curve with my new system.

However, when cleaning up after a brew session Sunday night I happened to look through the refractometer with just tap water on it and found that it was reading BELOW 0 Brix. There's no scale below zero, but I estimate that it was at about -1.3 Brix.

Thinking that my calibration was simply off, I took the thing into the house with me and started typing an email to a friend who had also used it that night to let him know that the thing was reading badly.

I looked through it again to make sure it was really off by -1.3 so I could give him a better idea about how badly it was off , but the thing was reading apprixiately -0.2... same water that I had just saw reading -1.3... All I did was carry it into the house from the garage. WTF?

So, I took it back out to the garage and sat it on the workbench for about 10 minutes and looked through it again. Back at -1.3.

Thinking back when I got it, it was winter and the house would have been at about 68*F. That was the temp it was at when I calibrated, but it looks like my "ATC" doesn't work for ****.

0.0 @ 68*F (ambient temp when calibrated in winter)
-0.2 @ 78*F (ambient temp of house now in summer)
-1.3 @ 92*F (ambient temp of garage when I brewed)

Has anyone else actually checked to see if their ATC refractometer is really correcting the temp properly? An error of 1.3 Brix is pretty significant, IMO.

ATC has a calibration temp and a range. I think you should check the literature that came with your tool and make sure you are using it in the proper environment and correctly.

And not being snarky, you should read about what ATC really does. IIRC, Kaiser has a good wiki on ATC. Unfortunately, ATC is often misunderstood.

In short. Calibrate at a conditioned room temp. Cool sample to a conditioned room temp. Take your reading at a conditioned room temp.
 
Hmmm...I guess I haven't checked. Now you are making me all worried!

We check the readings with a refractometer and a hydrometer, but it is always at cooled temperature, near 68F.

Hmmmm...
 
ATC has a calibration temp and a range. I think you should check the literature that came with your tool and make sure you are using it in the proper environment and correctly.

And not being snarky, you should read about what ATC really does. IIRC, Kaiser has a good wiki on ATC. Unfortunately, ATC is often misunderstood.

In short. Calibrate at a conditioned room temp. Cool sample to a conditioned room temp. Take your reading at a conditioned room temp.

I did read the little "manual" that came with the refractometer and it said to calibrate at 20*C, which is what I did (68*F).

However, that's all it says about temp being important for anything. The manual applies to several models (both ATC and non-ATC) and it says that if I do not have an ATC refractometer then I need to adjust the reading for the ambient temp, but if I have an ATC then I don't need to do anything.

Never says anything about needing to take the reading at a certain temp, or within a certain range.

I'll look up more info online and see what it says. The "manual" that came with my refractometer is pathetically short and is apparently lacking some relevant info.

Thanks!
 
Some quick skimming on the web indicates that ATC works as long as you are within the range of about 68*F to about 85*F.

Which seems to make sense given what I was seeing.... pretty small error at 78*F vs 68*F, but large error when I got up into the 90's.

Problem solved. The good news is that this means that my efficiency did NOT drop when I started using the new system.
:ban:
 
Some quick skimming on the web indicates that ATC works as long as you are within the range of about 68*F to about 85*F.

Which seems to make sense given what I was seeing.... pretty small error at 78*F vs 68*F, but large error when I got up into the 90's.

Problem solved. The good news is that this means that my efficiency did NOT drop when I started using the new system.
:ban:

Does that mean ambient AND liquid temp, or just ambient?
 
I'll look up more info online and see what it says. The "manual" that came with my refractometer is pathetically short and is apparently lacking some relevant info.

Thanks!

I completely understand.

A proper spec should read like;

SPECIFICATIONS FOR HI 96811​
Range​
0 to 50% Brix / 0 to 80°C (32 to 176°F)

Resolution​
± 0.1% Brix / ±0.1°C (±0.1°F)

Accuracy​
± 0.2 % Brix / ± 0.3°C (±0.5°F)

Automatic Temperature Compensation​
between 10 and 40°C (50 - 104°C)

Measurement Time​
Approximately 1.5 seconds

Minimum Sample Volume​
2 metric drops

Light Source​
Yellow LED

Sample Cell​
Stainless steel ring and flint glass prism

Case Material​
ABS

Enclosure Rating​
IP65

Battery Type / Life​
(1) 9V / 5000 readings

Auto-Off​
After 3 minutes of non-use

Dimensions​
19.2(W) x 10.2(D) x 6.7 (H)cm

Weight​
420g

Of course, the spec referenced is for a digital desktop refractometer cause, that is the first google link, but any proper spec should be as detailed.

Lack of info is the price we pay for cheap asian made Ebay knockoffs. But hey, at the manual was printed in broken engrish right?

Anyway, that temp spec is pretty typical. On another note, for wide swings within spec ranges you really shoulc let the optics acclimate to the chage in temp before taking your readings.

we all tend to rush things amidst the fast pace of brewing.

 
Does that mean ambient AND liquid temp, or just ambient?
Ambient, mainly the temp of the refractometer itself. When you put a drop of liquid on it, it will very quickly equilibrate to the temp of the instrument.
 
Ambient, mainly the temp of the refractometer itself. When you put a drop of liquid on it, it will very quickly equilibrate to the temp of the instrument.

OK, sounds good. And Phew! I was just about to go recheck all my beers.
 
This is for grape/wine folks, but reads OK: http://cefresno.ucdavis.edu/files/43066.pdf

The >90 degree temps we've been having are probably outside the compensation range. Your house is probably nicely air conditioned.

Yeah... Not only was the temp up in the 90's, but we had three rigs going in the garage. It was a freaking sauna in there. :cross:
 
Yeah... Not only was the temp up in the 90's, but we had three rigs going in the garage. It was a freaking sauna in there.
Ahh, brewing in NC in July... I put an AIPA in the fermenter last Sunday. Sunburn to go with the sauna :D
 
Sounds like we got the same refractometer. I made the mistake of calibrating it a couple weeks ago at about 90 F. Then I read the instructions. :drunk: The ATC must be calibrated at 68 F, then it works within a range of about 50-86 F. Now, how do I calibrate at 68 F in NC, in the summer? Voila, place the instrument in a class screw-top jar, jab a stem thermometer through the lid into the jar, place the jar in the fridge until the temp equalizes at 68 F then calibrate. Needless to say, in the summer I pull my samples and take them in the house to read. Basically you can't use them if the ambient temperatures are outside the ATC range of 53-86.
 
Does that mean ambient AND liquid temp, or just ambient?

Ambient. Because ATC is meant to correct for instrument temp.

ATC is ALWAYS misconstrued as correcting for sample temp and it is not designed for that.

Although, a reasonable argument could be made that the mass of the meter will heat sink the sample and then the ATC would correct for the swing. But range still applies and even the lowest mash temp is higher than the typical range. forget about the boil.
 
We could make a set of standards and graph out the 90 plus degree (or sauna temperature:)) reading vs the actual gravity. I'd use DME to make the standards, not sucrose like the wine guys do.
 
forget about the boil.
I grab some with a coffee cup and let it cool first, then take a drop or two onto the refractometer. Of course, the rest goes back into the boil!
 
Ambient. Because ATC is meant to correct for instrument temp.

ATC is ALWAYS misconstrued as correcting for sample temp and it is not designed for that.

Although, a reasonable argument could be made that the mass of the meter will heat sink the sample and then the ATC would correct for the swing. But range still applies and even the lowest mash temp is higher than the typical range. forget about the boil.

So it is more like Ambient...and liquid to a point? You are saying the refractometer is probably incapable of heatsinking the mash and boil temps?
 
Anyway, that temp spec is pretty typical. On another note, for wide swings within spec ranges you really shoulc let the optics acclimate to the chage in temp before taking your readings.



Instructions for mine says to wait 30 seconds before reading.

 
I'm not worried about my sample screwing anything up. I literally just dip a very small spoon into the wort and pull it back out. There is a total of maybe 4 drops of wort on it. Blow on it for a few seconds, drop it onto the thing and let it sit for a couple of minutes before closing the glass and taking the reading.

I am now going to store the damn thing in my fermentation chamber so that it's at a nice 64*F when I need to use it.
 
I am now going to store the damn thing in my fermentation chamber so that it's at a nice 64*F when I need to use it.
Good idea. I will steal it.:cool:
 
I am now going to store the damn thing in my fermentation chamber so that it's at a nice 64*F when I need to use it.

Better read the instructions again...the section about storing in high humidity;)
 
I grab some with a coffee cup and let it cool first, then take a drop or two onto the refractometer. Of course, the rest goes back into the boil!

Yup. I use what is called a Coors plate. All it is a is a dimpled ceramic labware sample plate. designed to heatsink sample prior to readings.

So it is more like Ambient...and liquid to a point? You are saying the refractometer is probably incapable of heatsinking the mash and boil temps?

No. I am saying that it is not designed to correct liquid temps. But, Physics doesn't always obey the laws we construct for it.

I'm not worried about my sample screwing anything up. I literally just dip a very small spoon into the wort and pull it back out. There is a total of maybe 4 drops of wort on it. Blow on it for a few seconds, drop it onto the thing and let it sit for a couple of minutes before closing the glass and taking the reading.

I am now going to store the damn thing in my fermentation chamber so that it's at a nice 64*F when I need to use it.

Good idea. I will steal it.:cool:

Better read the instructions again...the section about storing in high humidity;)

+1 Baaaaaad idea. Ever take a camera from the house outside in winter? Or, from the house to the brewery? Moisture and optics don't dance well lest they are professionally trained.
 
Well.... It's more humid in my brewery than it is in my ferm chamber.

Guess I'll go back to not checking gravity again. My beer doesn't seem to care whether I check or not, so maybe I should just roll with it like I used to with extract.
 
My chamber is like a sauna, have to use an eva-dry. I'm just going to store/use the refractometer in the house until the temps. moderate. I've used mine for 4 batches now, I won't brew without it.
 
Well.... It's more humid in my brewery than it is in my ferm chamber.

Guess I'll go back to not checking gravity again. My beer doesn't seem to care whether I check or not, so maybe I should just roll with it like I used to with extract.

Yeah, aren't you the same guy who was all "**** HYDROMETERS!" when I first joined?
 
Yeah, aren't you the same guy who was all "**** HYDROMETERS!" when I first joined?
Indeed.

I started checking OG after the switch from extract to AG so I could see how my efficiency looked. I still don't ever check FG and I'm pretty much always in the range of 73% to 77% on OG, so I think I'm about to start hating gravity measurements again and chucking the damn device to the side.
 
Better read the instructions again...the section about storing in high humidity
My fermentation "chamber" is an air-conditioned, carpeted basement, so humidity's not a problem in there, though point taken about cold things and North Carolina's very, very humid summer air! Thanks for the heads-up.
I suppose RTFM doesn't hurt to be modified to re-RTFM every couple of years...:eek:
 
yes. the manual refractometer for has good operation writed calibration to see for doing.
Thanks for the laugh. :)
Now I've got to look at my manual, to see how good or bad it is.
 
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