Is the dishwasher really your enemy?

We've all heard it, some of us preach it, but is it true? Does the dishwasher ruin head retention in your barware and make for a poor beer drinking experience?

Last week, I was listening to an old Basic Brewing podcast, and the guest (Ray Daniels, I think) was talking about "beer clean" barware. He talked about using salt to determine whether a glass is beer clean or not. This morning, Laughing Gnome posted this video describing the same technique.



I have been cleaning my barware in the dishwasher (WITH Jet Dry) for years knowing full well the possible negative effects. However, I've never perceived any ill effects. Today, I decided to prove that my dishwasher does indeed produce beer clean glasses. This glass came out of the dishwasher a few days ago, shortly after the Jet Dry reservoir had been replenished:


I got the same result with one of my Sam Adams glasses, washed even more recently. So, not only am I not perceiving any ill effects, THERE ARE NONE! I'm not saying that everyone should start using their dishwashers for barware, but in some cases, it might not hurt. Of course, not all dishwashers are the same. Also, we have VERY hard water, and that may make a difference.

Is the dishwasher really my enemy? This test yields a definitive, "NO!"

Funnily enough, the reason I posted that video in the other thread was because at the time I was reading it I was drinking out of a dishwasher cleaned glass that I forgot to re-rinse, and was very dissappointed at the sudden loss of head and zero lacing.

I don't think it is necessary to do the salt washing thing, but I do feel that doing that at least once is educational and helps you understand how important a clean glass really is.

I used to wash my beer glasses in the dishwasher (with Jet Dry), and don't remember noticing any negative effects, but I don't know that I was really looking for any.

I'm interested in seeing others' experiences...I'll be watching this thread. Thanks for posting the question, Yuri.

Just to be clear, I did not do the salt scrubbing step with the glass in the picture. That's how it looked on the very first salt test with no excessive rinsing or additional cleaning.

I'm not in the pay of the anti-dishwasher lobby.

Yuri, do you use that "rinse agent" or "conditioner" in your dryer? We do, and I think that's what kills the lacing in our dishwasher.

Yes, Jet Dry is a common dishwasher rinse agent.

Yuri_Rage said:

Yes, Jet Dry is a common dishwasher rinse agent.

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Sorry. I missed the jet dry reference in the OP.

Now I'm intrigued! I honestly see a definite difference between my dishwasher glasses and my hand rinsed glasses.......My mind is now officially boggling. I will try that salt test later with the dishwasher when my SWMBO isn't looking.

I'm curious to see results from other areas and other dishwashers. I'm guessing that areas with a soft water profile will produce very different results.

Those look like some awesome Margarita glasses with all that salt. My favorite beer glasses never see the inside of a dishwasher. Overtime they will etch in the dishwasher, but more importantly I am pretty sensitive to the chlorine/cloramine odor that sticks to the glass. Much easier to hand clean using the RO water spigot. Even easier when my wife hand cleans them!

Thread prosted. I am VERY curious for you good people to post findings!

I'm lazy and just use the dishwasher for all my glasses. and get good head/lacing. but I also dont use jet dry.

I have my beer glasses running in the dishwasher now. I will report back in about an hour.

As the poster who originally had the head problem... I have tried the salt test with glasses from my dishwasher and from my hand washed and rinsed glasses (which my dishes are) - I think that the issue there is that the salt test is to show the "not clean" parts of the glass, which can kill the head. On the other hand there is still the "no-no" of using certain cleaning agents, as they can kill the head on their own, even if the glass is clean. Something about them cutting down on the bubbles? I think it is as well to compare brands of washer as to compare the dishwasher vs the sink.

lady_brewer said:

As the poster who originally had the head problem... I have tried the salt test with glasses from my dishwasher and from my hand washed and rinsed glasses (which my dishes are) - I think that the issue there is that the salt test is to show the "not clean" parts of the glass, which can kill the head. On the other hand there is still the "no-no" of using certain cleaning agents, as they can kill the head on their own, even if the glass is clean. Something about them cutting down on the bubbles? I think it is as well to compare brands of washer as to compare the dishwasher vs the sink.

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Did you see any difference between hand washed and dishwasher washed?

Well, I just spent the last 30 minutes testing my glasses. All of my 8 pint/bomber (24 oz mugs) that I keep on top of my kegerator were dirty. I always hand wash my glasses with a sponge and palmolive or dawn dish soap.

I scrubbed with the salt and it came out just like the videos did.

Thanks a lot guys,
J
I'm eager to see how my porter's head retention is when I pour a pint later this afternoon.

lady makes some great points. I thought that Jet Dry would create a car-wax-like film, causing sheeting and beading, resulting in scant spots of salt throughout the glass. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps Jet Dry actually allows for the illusion of a beer-clean glass, while it lies in wait to destroy your beer. I'm curious to know more.

Regardless, my dishwasher-fresh barware supports a long lasting, pillowy head that laces well. I use regular Cascade powdered detergent from the green box and Jet Dry rinse agent from the aqua-blue bottle on the "Normal Wash" setting in a GE/Amana series dishwasher that's about 4 years old.

My dishwasher is as old as dirt, only has a dial that goes from start to finish with no indicators of where it is in the cycle and a lever to lock it. I use cascade dish soap (in the green box) and I don't know if my wife uses jet dry, (she did about a year ago I think). Here is how it turned out...



BTW, I loved the cat in the earlier vid.

Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:

Did you see any difference between hand washed and dishwasher washed?

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In terms of the salt test there was very little difference. I am not sure what our after agent/ drying agent is (if we have one) b/c it is still there from the previous owners. (We bought out house a couple of months ago) - we use Electrosol/Finish (same stuff new name) for washing.

Also no difference in the head. My first salt glass is now giving me a slightly creamier head (less bubbly?) but it still isn't hanging around. Although I am (and usually do) getting a bit of lacing.

I don't know how long the solvents hang around though?

My LHBS guy asked about how much soap I used to get good suds in the sink... he needs very little to get lots of suds and his head is great. I am still leaning towards the water factor.

I have many bar glasses that I have been washing in the dishwasher for as many as 20 years. I have never once noticed an ill effect from a dishwasher washed glass. I also have a brand new set of custom-etched glasses that I have no qualms about washing in the dishwasher.

This has always been one of those issues to me, one where I do not agree with the accepted wisdom but choose not to comment.

I do not use a rinse agent.

i don't use dishwasher, for my 3-4 pint glasses that only i use, after a beer, i immediately rinse with hot water (the hottest sink will get) and just use my fingers to scrub where my lips touched the glass.. and that's it.. no soap.

i get excellent head retention.

metaltim said:

i don't use dishwasher, for my 3-4 pint glasses that only i use, after a beer, i immediately rinse with hot water (the hottest sink will get) and just use my fingers to scrub where my lips touched the glass.. and that's it.. no soap.

i get excellent head retention.

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I wonder if the extremely hot water knocks off some of that oil that was talked about in the video.

See, I was actually very surprised that my glasses were as dirty as they were because I just recently bought them and had soaked them in extremely hot soapy water to get the stickers off of them. After the soak, I scrubbed with a sponge. I bought 8 glasses to go on my kegerator, but I only use a couple of them (I'm the only one drinking.) I tested all of the glasses with the salt and all were dirty.

I performed a few tests after I cleaned with salt. I was wondering if the fabric softener in the dish towels had something to do with it, but it seemed to have no negative effect. I also sprayed with vinegar instead of using the salt abrasive test and this sorta worked, but not as effective.

I thought about vinegar b/c it's very similar to Jet Dry.

What some guys will do for a little head.

Just for the record, my dishwasher is nearly worthless, but I've never had a problem with a beer glass.

I was really hoping I could blame my lack of head on my dishwasher...

Yuri_Rage said:

lady makes some great points. I thought that Jet Dry would create a car-wax-like film, causing sheeting and beading, resulting in scant spots of salt throughout the glass. Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps Jet Dry actually allows for the illusion of a beer-clean glass, while it lies in wait to destroy your beer. I'm curious to know more.

Regardless, my dishwasher-fresh barware supports a long lasting, pillowy head that laces well. I use regular Cascade powdered detergent from the green box and Jet Dry rinse agent from the aqua-blue bottle on the "Normal Wash" setting in a GE/Amana series dishwasher that's about 4 years old.

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That sounds exactly like my set up last year. Maybe even the same dishwasher, I am not sure. My water was also quite hard. That being said, like Yuri I had no issues at all with head retention with my glasses in the dishwasher.

I don't even have a dishwasher now, or I would be doing some experimenting.

I can't see the video where I'm logged into at the moment. Can someone give a basic rundown on the procedure you're doing to test your glasses with the salt?

I run all my glasses though the dishwasher, but don't use Jetdry. Haven't had much of a problem with head since I got my carbonation straight, but I've had problems at other folks' houses.

Basically, you wash it, rinse it with warm water, run salt down the inside of the glass (enough to generously cover the sides) and note weather the salt is spotty or if it covers the entire inside. If it is spotty, it isn't "beer clean" so you scrub it with the salt and rinse it out.

Do I dry it after I rinse it or leave it wet? Won't the salt just sitck everywhere if it's wet?

ChshreCat said:

Do I dry it after I rinse it or leave it wet? Won't the salt just sitck everywhere if it's wet?

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When I first tried it months ago, it was very uneven. Just a few spots where the salt stuck to the wet sides after i wetted a glass from the dishwasher. I see now that I will have to try all this nonsense all over again!

That's my video in the OP. I can definitely say that there were losses in head retention with both the glasses and also sanitizing my bottles through the dishwasher. Had terrible head retention issues. Once I started just using star-san for bottle sanitization, my head retention problems faded. We never used jet-dry, either. I think it was more a product of the hard water more than anything.

I have since moved and now keg, and have great head retention. I also run all non-paint etched glasses through the new dishwasher with no ill-effects. So I think it is still an issue of water chemistry as well as the harshness of the soap.

ChshreCat said:

Do I dry it after I rinse it or leave it wet? Won't the salt just sitck everywhere if it's wet?

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Do not dry it, the reason you don't dry it is because the water will stick to clean glass but not dirty or oily glass. The salt sticks to the water in the clean spots and just runs over and doesn't stick to dirty spots.

Cheap dishwasher, no jetdry, no retention problems, no label removal problems, no salt testing.

OH, and after you rinse you shake out as much water as possible with a few shakes, but again, don't rinse.

Just tried this as a proof of concept on some hand washed glasses (don't have dishwasher) and they showed me that the glasses are very clean. Also, tried it on a dirty glass and it showed me that there indeed some clumps of salt throughout showing contamination. Thanks for the tips!

I use cascade all in one packs. They have a rinse aid in them and I have had no problems with head retention. I will have to try the salt test when I get home.

Will try salt test on my glasses when home. I have a pretty new and bad ass kitchenaide dishwasher. I think running it on hitemp scrub would work for a sterilization cycle too. I need to look at the manual again.

Well, last night I had a few pints in my newly salt scubbed glasses. I've never had head retention on my glasses like that. Every singe pint I poured I rinsed the glass out with hot water in between and there was nice lacing.

smokinghole said:

Will try salt test on my glasses when home. I have a pretty new and bad ass kitchenaide dishwasher. I think running it on hitemp scrub would work for a sterilization cycle too. I need to look at the manual again.

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I have a high-end ($$$) stainless steel Kitchen-Aid jobby. It has the Hi-Temp Scrub option. It gets the bottles REALLY hot. I mean, really hot. I wish I knew the temp, but I am betting this is a good sanitizer.

I have been doing my bottles like this for years with never a problem. I do make sure they are well-rinsed after I pour a beer.

Yeah all the Grolsch bottles I've been drinking lately get rinsed out well then left in the case to air dry. When it comes time to bottle my cider I'll throw them through the dishwasher on hightemp scrub and be done with it. I might throw some sanitizer in the soap reservoir.

It would seem that all our issues regarding dishwashers, water properties or whatever forces dictate head retention and lacing problems from the glassware are very individual indeed!

Different drying agents will give different results. We were using some all in one packets for a while, and it absolutely killed the head retention. Recently switched to a standard additive, and the difference was amazing. Still not as good as hand washed, but much better than before. I can check the brands when I get home.