Adding grape concentrate to tripel

Hello folks,

I've been using the search feature and haven't really found a good answer to this question.

I'm interested in adding some grape concentrate (still trying to figure out whether red or white) to a tripel when transferring to secondary and had a few questions.

Say I used this can: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/review/product/list/id/2199/category/189/

46oz of grape concentrate is 68 brix. If I was originally looking for get to 1.081 OG, 1.012 FG in a 5 gallon batch, how much DME should I leave out to take into account the sugars from the grape concentrate?

How does grape concentrate ferment out compared to DME or table sugar. I was going to use 15% table sugar in the tripel, but could replace some of it with the concentrate if it ferments out at almost 100%.

Any thoughts or experience using grape concentrate in beer? Any help would be appreciated.

First off, why are you considering adding grape concentrate to a tripel? Just to experiment? What are you trying to accomplish with this addition?

Nearly all the sugar in the grape juice/concentrate will be simple and should ferment out to nearly 100% so I would treat it like sugar. I've added apricot puree to a batch after visible fermentation had died down. I calculate the amount of sugar in the 40oz of puree from the label indicating the grams of sugar/serving x the number of servings. I then converted that number to lbs. It ended up not being much; something like 0.3 lbs of sugar. I then plugged this number into the recipe calculator at tastybrew.com when putting together the recipe. Use this process to figure out how much sugar you'll be adding.

Since the juice concentrate will ferment out completely, you won't be adding any sweetness to the final product. You will, however, be left with a tart/sour flavor. Imagine the tartness of a grape that is not quite ripe. That's what you'll be getting. My apricot ale took several months to mellow out and let the apricot flavor come through.

If you use it (and why???), you should use the white since the beer is a trippel.

As I understand it 68 brix would have a gravity of around 1.280. This is about 3 pints. If diluted into 5 gallons, it would contribute .021 to the gravity.

By the way, that is equivalent to about 2.4 lbs of table sugar.

It will ferment 100%.

I'm not saying don't use it. Just think about what you are trying to make before you do use it. If you use it, don't use any additional simple sugars.

I advise against this, a tripel doesn't need grape concentrate.

I'm using it because I just wanted to try something new. The cake I'm throwing the tripel on was a 7.4% Belgian Pale, which really turned out to be nothing but a tripel. I don't really want to brew the same beer twice in a row, so I was mulling this idea.

My plan was to leave out the table sugar additions (1.5lb) that I was originally going to use and sub the grape concentrate instead (added at secondary). I'm also going to add a Brett starter from the dregs of some Green Flash Rayon Vert bottles at secondary.

FWIW, I actually went with sauvignon blanc concentrate. I'll try to remember to report back in a few months.

Edit: I'm only going to use half of the can in the tripel so as to not get out of control with it. The other half is going to be dumped in a 9 month old lambic.

Just an short update to this.

Brewed the base tripel on Sunday (1.071), pitched onto a Wyeast 3522 cake (was a Belgian pale ale) on Monday and by Thursday it was down to 1.016. Going to let it sit for a couple weeks before pitching onto 1/2 a can (2lbs) of Alexander's sauvignon blanc grape concentrate with a Brett Brux starter made up of the dregs from a four-pack of Green Flash Rayon Vert.

I'll report back once I have more updates.

joshrosborne said:

Just an short update to this.

Brewed the base tripel on Sunday (1.071), pitched onto a Wyeast 3522 cake (was a Belgian pale ale) on Monday and by Thursday it was down to 1.016. Going to let it sit for a couple weeks before pitching onto 1/2 a can (2lbs) of Alexander's sauvignon blanc grape concentrate with a Brett Brux starter made up of the dregs from a four-pack of Green Flash Rayon Vert.

I'll report back once I have more updates.

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Skip the update just send me a bottle...I mean:::: I got-a try this...

I think it will be a bit tart and sour like the gent said above...

DPB

funny, I've been planning on doing essentially the same thing - hoping to play the sour grape notes off the fruity flavors from the Belgian yeast. I'm doing a three gallon batch as an experiment.

I'm curious about what recipe and yeast you used.

Keep us informed how it goes!

It was just a simple extract recipe.

6lb Light DME (3lbs late addition)
2lbs Wheat DME (late addition)
1/2lb Carafoam (steep)
1/4lb Belgian Aromatic (steep)
1oz Perle (60 minutes)
1oz Saaz (20 minutes)

I think the Perle was a bit much, so .75oz probably would have been better. I used the wheat DME b/c I had it on hand, but normally would have used all light DME.

Pitched on a Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes cake that was from a Belgian pale ale. Primary in freezer at 72 degrees and will move to carboy with Brett Brux starter and 2lbs sauvignon blanc grape concentrate in a couple of weeks.

Muscat grape juice has been used in DFH's Midas Touch since the original recipe found in King Midas' tomb from over 2,700 years ago. Not an ale,not a wine,but some combo of both. There's a thread at the top of the page in one of those forums about it.

unionrdr said:

Muscat grape juice has been used in DFH's Midas Touch since the original recipe found in King Midas' tomb from over 2,700 years ago. Not an ale,not a wine,but some combo of both. There's a thread at the top of the page in one of those forums about it.

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Yeah, I actually found it after I made this thread. Some good information in there, for sure.

joshrosborne said:

Going to let it sit for a couple weeks before pitching onto 1/2 a can (2lbs) of Alexander's sauvignon blanc grape concentrate with a Brett Brux starter made up of the dregs from a four-pack of Green Flash Rayon Vert.

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any particular reason you're going to let it sit for a few weeks? no harm, but i'm not sure there is any advantage either. and i wouldn't bother with the brett starter. you'll get more brett characteristics if you pitch low.

i like the brett idea. should be a really tasty brew.

sweetcell said:

any particular reason you're going to let it sit for a few weeks? no harm, but i'm not sure there is any advantage either. and i wouldn't bother with the brett starter. you'll get more brett characteristics if you pitch low.

i like the brett idea. should be a really tasty brew.

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I was going to see if some of the yeast would flocculate out and settle so I'd end up with less in the secondary. Also, I don't have the Rayon Vert in hand yet. ; ) Need to pick it up this weekend.

So, you're saying just pitch the dregs from the bottles? I can either recap them after drinking and pitch at once or pitch as I finish them. Not sure how much of a difference it would make.

joshrosborne said:

I was going to see if some of the yeast would flocculate out and settle so I'd end up with less in the secondary. Also, I don't have the Rayon Vert in hand yet. ; ) Need to pick it up this weekend.

So, you're saying just pitch the dregs from the bottles? I can either recap them after drinking and pitch at once or pitch as I finish them. Not sure how much of a difference it would make.

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you'll need to leave the brett in secondary for several months, so the original yeast will have plenty of time to flocc out. the brett will eat the any sacc left behind and their by-products, so getting some into secondary isn't a bad thing. but nothing wrong with leaving it behind, either.

oh right, i forgot that you were pitching bottle dregs. a small starter might be in order, it'll speed things up (but you should still give it 4-6 months in secondary). make the starter weak (~1.020) and small... those poor cells have had it rough, they need a gentle awakening.

Brief update:

The tripel in primary went from 1.071 down to 1.012 in about a week. Just waiting for the Rayon Vert dreg starter to get some legs under it and I'll be moving to secondary with the grape concentrate.

joshrosborne said:

Just waiting for the Rayon Vert dreg starter to get some legs under it and I'll be moving to secondary with the grape concentrate.

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something just occurred to me... are you adding the grape juice at the same time as the brett in order to feed the brett? if so, don't bother. brett is slow-acting. the sacc will wake up and eat the grape juice long before the brett can at it.

there is plenty in there for the brett to eat - they'll munch on things that the sacc will have left behind. also, you want to stress the brett to get those delicious flavors. give brett a big buffet and they'll get lazy.

Ok, so you think I could transfer to secondary now to let the sacc eat the grapes? Then, once the gravity gets back down, pitch the Brett? Not a bad idea, now that I think of it.

With all the input you're providing, I'm going to have to send you a bottle once it's finished (provided it's any good) .

joshrosborne said:

Ok, so you think I could transfer to secondary now to let the sacc eat the grapes? Then, once the gravity gets back down, pitch the Brett? Not a bad idea, now that I think of it.

With all the input you're providing, I'm going to have to send you a bottle once it's finished (provided it's any good) .

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paragraph 1: yup. in fact you would get fastest turn-around by adding the grape juice to primary, but there should be plenty of sacc left to munch through that in secondary.

paragraph 2: i would LOVE to try this, no matter how it turns out. always something to learn from another's hoembrew! (and more often than not, it'll be very tasty )

Hmm, maybe I will just add the grape concentrate to the primary. Then the secondary will be a lot more clean and I more than likely won't need a tertiary. Plus I still have the blowoff tubing hooked up from the initial pitch, so I won't have to reinstall when adding the grapes.

joshrosborne said:

Hmm, maybe I will just add the grape concentrate to the primary. Then the secondary will be a lot more clean and I more than likely need a tertiary. Plus I still have the blowoff tubing hooked up from the initial pitch, so I won't have to reinstall when adding the grapes.

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sounds like a good plan.

not sure that you'll need a tertiary. given the amount of time that the beer will spend in secondary, it should be very clear. i'm only on my third batch of brett beer, but so far they have all been crystal clear. brett doesn't make a big sediment/trub so not much concern there. any other reason your are considering a tertiary?

Whoops, I missed a key word there: I WON'T need a tertiary.

If I would have added the grapes to the secondary, I'd probably have to rack again at some point. Now I can skip it if I'm adding it to the primary.

joshrosborne said:

Whoops, I missed a key word there: I WON'T need a tertiary.

If I would have added the grapes to the secondary, I'd probably have to rack again at some point. Now I can skip it if I'm adding it to the primary.

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I thought you were adding grape concentrate, not grapes. The concentrate shouldn't leave anything behind.

If you are going to add the Brett in a secondary fermenter, you probably want to rack the beer while some of the sacc is still active. As the sacc flocs out and dies, it provides food for the Brett.

Another brief update:

A little over a week ago I added the sauvignon blanc concentrate to the tripel. On 3/31 I racked into a carboy with the Brett B starter. It's currently in my fermentation chamber at 72 degrees for what will probably be a long haul. I'll give it a month or so before checking for taste/gravity.

joshrosborne said:

It's currently in my fermentation chamber at 72 degrees for what will probably be a long haul. I'll give it a month or so before checking for taste/gravity.

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72*F is fine, but it's even a bit on the warm side. feel free to drop the temps a little if you need to (and save on electricity). mid-60's is fine for brett. supposedly russian river ages all their bugs in the low 60's. no real difference, whatever works for you

hopefully you took a gravity reading just before racking to secondary so you have a solid idea where the brett is starting from.

I just had it at 72 from the last couple of beers I fermented in it (Belgian pale and the tripel that has the Brett now). I used WY 3522, which I find is too mild in the 60's. I'll turn it down b/c there's really no reason is needs to be that high. I also have a sour stout with Roeselare fermenting in there also which is good from 65-85.

Gravity immediately before racking was 1.012.

I like this thread, interested to see how this turns out. But I would have dropped that concentrate in at flame out. You're adding alot of sugar to secondary.

DAlexander said:

I like this thread, interested to see how this turns out. But I would have dropped that concentrate in at flame out. You're adding alot of sugar to secondary.

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I actually added it in primary and let the concentrate ferment mostly out before racking. The sacch got it back down to 1.012 even after the concentrate before the Brett had to deal with it.

had the OP added the juice directly to secondary, there is more than enough yeast in there to ferment it out completely.

If I had to do it again, I probably would have added it to the secondary. For some reason, I thought it was just going to be crushed, packed grapes, not the liquid it was. I have no idea why I thought that, but whatever. I doubt it made much, if any difference.

Shot of the tripel on the left, sour stout on the right. Obviously no activity from the Brett yet, but I'll post some pictures once there is some.

unionrdr said:

Muscat grape juice has been used in DFH's Midas Touch since the original recipe found in King Midas' tomb from over 2,700 years ago. Not an ale,not a wine,but some combo of both. There's a thread at the top of the page in one of those forums about it.

Click to expand...

This.

And to me without trying to recreate or brew the Midas touch, a Tripel seems PERFECT to add grape concentrate to.

Nothing new to speak of. Just updating for posterity.

Yesterday I added the dregs of a Logsdon Peche 'n Brett (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/25710/81079). Was impressed enough with the beer that I thought I'd add to see if it helped give it some complexity.

Just an picture update:

Some interesting bubbles forming on the tripel



And some other unrelated pictures-

Nasty pellicle on a lambic:



This is what an acetobacter infection looks like (ruined lambic batch):

Same beer, slightly crazier pellicle a few weeks later...

looking good! love those big bubbles.

Have you tasted it yet? Interested in trying this in a completely different direction, but interested to see how the 24oz. worked out for you in the tripel.

I bottled it about a month ago with champagne yeast, but haven't opened any yet. It is super funky and dry and really hot, so I think I'm going to sit on these for a while to let the alcohol calm down a bit. I'll be sure to update once I open one of them.

Any updates on this? Curious to see how it tastes!

DuffBeerMN said:

Any updates on this? Curious to see how it tastes!

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It's a really weird beer, for sure. The alcohol heat on it has faded, but it has a weird combination of sweetness and funk which I don't care for. It's far better than it was when I opened one after it was initially bottled, but it's just too strange for me to enjoy full. I don't know how it's so sweet when it finished just about at 1.00.