christmas ale, take 2. any thoughts?

This is only my second post and i am still a noob so bear with me, but after a failed attempt at brewing my first holiday ale a month ago i decided it wasn't to late to try again...right? So seeing as this is sort of still my first christmas ale i thought this time id get some advice. I am going to start fermentation at about 61F and maybe slowly raise it up to 70F. The batch will total 4.6 gal and i have 10g dry Nottingham yeast to pitch. The recipe is....

Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
6 lb Liquid Malt Extract - Pilsen 35 2 45.1%
2 lb Maris Otter Pale 38 3.75 15%
1 lb Belgian Candi Sugar - Amber/Brown 38 60 7.5%
1 lb Dry Malt Extract - Pilsen 42 2 7.5%
0.75 lb Molasses 36 80 5.6%
0.5 lb Caramel / Crystal 40L 34 40 3.8%
0.5 lb Dark Chocolate 29 420 3.8%
0.4 lb Flaked Oats 33 2.2 3%
0.3 lb Roasted Barley 33 300 2.3%
0.22 lb Munich - Light 10L 33 10 1.7%
0.22 lb Victory 34 28 1.7%
0.2 lb Carapils (Dextrine Malt) 33 1.8 1.5%
0.2 lb Black Patent 27 525 1.5%
Hops
Amount Variety Time AA Type Use
2 oz nb 60 min 12.3 Pellet Boil
1 oz Fuggles 15 min 4.5 Pellet Boil
Show Summary View
Mash Steps
Amount Description Type Temp Time
10 qt Sparge 155 F 60 min
Other Ingredients
Amount Name Time Type Use
7 each cinnamon 15 min Spice Boil
10 each clove 15 min Spice Boil
Yeast
Danstar - Nottingham Ale Yeast
Attenuation (avg):
77%
Flocculation:
High
Optimum Temperature:
57°F - 70°F
Starter:
No

Any advice, tip/tricks, or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. So let me know.
Thanks
thestew

Are you doing an mini mash or steeping?

oops. Its a mini mash with 10 quarts of water. 5 quarts at 155F mash temp for 1 hour and 5 quarts to sparge at 170F.

You have too many speciality malts in this imho. It will only taste brown and muddy, especially if you plan to spice it.

What are you trying to achieve ? What flavours are you shooting for ? Fruity/caramel type of stuff, or more of a robust, roasty, chocolate approach ? Winter ales range the gamut, from very pale to stout/porter in character. In England, some winter ales were just the finest pale malt they could buy while others were a bunch of sugar and high kilned malts. Or do you want a more American approach ?

Since you are using pils LME, maybe a mash a couple of pounds of Munich with a high lovibond caramel (80L) and adjust with chocolate malt for colour ? Then use invert sugar or candi sugar to boost gravity. That'd make for a bitching winter ale that would be ready to drink by Christmas.

jfr1111 said:

You have too many speciality malts in this imho.

Click to expand...

+1. I would drop the carapils definitely because extract already has it. Also drop the oats, just use 1 or 2 types of roasted grains, and maybe add some more crystal. I like what jfr1111 said about mashing more munich instead of maris otter.

It does sound like a wide range of grains and malts. I haven't tried a recipe that diverse myself, but could see how that might taste muddled on the pallet. I have made beers from grain bills with about half the variety you have there and they had plenty of complexity. To me it seems there is certain complexity added by the malt diversity, and other complexity added by the yeast. The two don't seem to overlap much. So if you want something that tastes more complex perhaps a more simple grain bill, and a more complex yeast.

thanks everyone for the ideas.
i didn't really think that all the different grains would make it taste worse, but it kind of makes sense.
@jfr1111 i like the idea of adding more munich, dropping the victory and maris otter. The style im looking for is a chocolaty spiced Imperial stout.
however i have had problems with past beers being just a tad to light bodied and also getting a thick head has eluded me. So i thought adding in the oats and carapills would help with that? Also i was thinking the lighter caramel40 would add more residual sweetness to offset any overly bitter flavor add by the black patent. is it not necessary?
Thanks again everyone

oats won't help with head retention, usually people add wheat or carapils for head but even that is more of a band aid for process issues. this is a good article on head retention: http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques. You may just want to find a good Imperial stout recipe to use as a base and add some spices to it.

thanks peterj, that was a fun read. I guess i should have specified, carapils were to help head and oats for body or mouth feel. but now i see why adding carapils is more of a band aid. Still wondering though about the lighter caramel40 and if would add more residual sweetness to offset any overly bitter flavor add by the black patent or if its not necessary?

yeah I think it's probably a good idea to leave the caramel 40L in there.

So i made the beer with a few adjustments and it smells great. I read else where that 12oz of molasses might have been a bit much, but its debatable i guess. Anyway i started fermentation temp low, it started in 12hours, and is now going strong. I plan on letting the fermentation temp naturally rise, while keeping the ambient temp between 62- 66F. Any thoughts on this? Also my OG was a little over 1.095. So i was also wondering how long i could leave this in the primary? Also iv read that its debatable weather its necessary to rack to a secondary, in the past i have, but if i dont have to risk infection and O2 exposure i dont want to. So, should i rack this? and when? Also in either case how long should i let it sit(in primary or secondary) before bottling? If it helps, im trying to have this thing ready by December, but during that time i really want to minimize the risk of infection and the way i see it is the sooner its bottled the sooner it can be stored away and i dont have to worry about anymore steps where it could "catch a cold".
Thanks

I wouldn't let nottingham ferment too high. Danstar recommends 57-70F. It can throw off some weird esters at temps around 70F and higher, and at the height of fermentation your beer can be ~8 degrees warmer than ambient. I usually put my fermenter in a large bucket of water and use frozen water bottles to regulate the temperature. Search "swamp cooler" for ideas.

I would say you only need to transfer to a secondary if you were going to age it for more than like 2 or 3 months. That wouldn't be a bad idea with a beer this big, but you said you wanted it ready for December, so I would say leave it in primary until mid to late November. If you bottle around then it should be ready to drink by Christmas, but the longer you wait the better it will get probably.

hey, just as an update on this Christmas beer, its all done and in bottles. So basically this beer was a second attempt at one i tried to brew a few months earlier(for the season) that ended up being awful. After making a few changes and although the beer is not fully done conditioning, it seams to taste great to me. If anyone is interested the recipes on brewers friend under winter wolf warmer. The new brew fermented at an ambient temp of 62-64F and i let it sit for about a month before racking to a carboy and let it sit, to this day while it cleared a bit. The final ABV came out at 9.85%(calculated via SG and FG). When bottling i added fresh yeast and 3.4oz table sugar to a total of 4.2gal beer and it has begun carbonating immediately. So id just like to say, thank you to everyone for the input and help, and im pretty sure that this beer is the first winter warmer i can be proud of.
thanks