Two batches, same funky taste/smell

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pendragon

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I've now made two batches of beer since I started the homebrewing. Both are the Mountmellick brand canned extract. One being the Irish Stout and the other Brown Ale.

They both have the same odd taste and smell to them though. I really can't stand more than a couple tastes of either. The smell reminds me of the starsan sanitizer. Even though I've seen it everywhere that starsan does not need to be rinsed, the local brew store suggested rinsing the bottles prior to bottling. After sitting in the closet for a month, they have a nice pop when opened. There's a good 1-2 inches of head on it when pouring into a glass.

Here's how I'm cleaning/sanitizing the bottles if anyone could point out something that might be wrong. The bottles have no visble dirt or reside so they're soaked in a bucket of 5start pbw for about 30 mins and then soaked in a second bucket filled with starsan for around 30 mins as well. They then put into the bottom rack of the dishwasher to drain and dry. They're not actually washed in the dishwasher though. After drying they're put into a crate capped until ready to be filled. Which maybe a couple weeks later when ready to bottle.

When the bottles are taken out of the starsan and the bottle dumped into the bucket. The starsan leaves soap bubble looking foam inside the bottle. Once dried this there is no apparent film. Although the outside of the bottles seems to have a slippery film to them.

When using the bottling wand to partly fill a clean glass, at bottling time, the beer did not have this nasty after taste to it. As much as I've read that starsan contributes no off flavors, it seems theres is something going on there.
 
This is probably going to start a decent debate, but here goes...

I've never used any chemical anything to sanitize my 12 oz. bottles. I get them good and clean with hot water and a brush, then I let them dry, then I put a piece of tin-foil over the top and put them into my oven. Slowly bring it up to 350, hold it there for half an hour, then turn it off and let them cool. I can take a bunch of rinsed bottles, cover them, load them, bake them and let them cool in about 2 1/2 hours. Usuaully, I bake them after dinner and let them cool overnight so the time issue is negligible. I use one-liter flip-tops occasionally, but I use b-bright to sanitize them since they don't fit in the oven, and they taste the same as the 12's.

The guy that owns my LHBS has been doing this for going on 20 years, and has even experimented with leaving bits of yeast cake in the bottom and baking them like that. He could taste burnt yeast in the ones he didn't clean, but there was no infection from it.

I can fit 46 12 oz. bottles into my oven, or I can swap a couple of those out for 22 oz. bottles. Almost enough for a 5 gallon batch, so I end up drinking a beer and a half or so at the bottom of the bottling bucket, for research and all that...
 
The bottles have no visble dirt or reside so they're soaked in a bucket of 5start pbw for about 30 mins and then soaked in a second bucket filled with starsan for around 30 mins as well.
QUOTE]

If you aren't rinsing them after the pbw soak then you are putting cleaner into your bottles.I've tasted mixed star-san and can not detect any flavor or odor from it.Here's a quote from another forum as a reply to your exact same question.

"I’d be really surprised if it was the StarSan causing the off flavor. A few years back, a former owner of HBA, Al, gave me a demo when I voiced similar concerns. He took a teaspoon of full strength StarSan and mixed it into a full glass of beer. We both tasted it, he to please me so I didn’t think he was trying to poison me. I could not tell it was in the beer. Al had stated that he was given the same demo from a high up rep in the company. Now that’s been many years ago, but I wouldn’t think the StarSan formula could have changed that much; I could be wrong though."
 
One thing I would look at is that you mentioned that you are leaving the bottles for up to two weeks after you've sanitized them. For me, whether they're capped or tin-foiled or whatever... there's still a chance of getting some little microscopic bacteria in the bottles that will just wait for your nice cool beer to be placed in them for bottling. Maybe it's not very likely, but I wouldn't use the bottles after a 2-week wait. I'd re-sanitize them. Maybe it's a lot of work, but sanitizing is really really important...
 
How long in primary? What was OG and FG? What temp were they fermented at? How long were they conditioned? All the above questions and more will impact your beer...
 
One thing I would look at is that you mentioned that you are leaving the bottles for up to two weeks after you've sanitized them. For me, whether they're capped or tin-foiled or whatever... there's still a chance of getting some little microscopic bacteria in the bottles that will just wait for your nice cool beer to be placed in them for bottling. Maybe it's not very likely, but I wouldn't use the bottles after a 2-week wait. I'd re-sanitize them. Maybe it's a lot of work, but sanitizing is really really important...



Yeah. I would clean and rinse whenever you feel like it, but sanitize on bottling day. Starsan only requires 30-60 seconds of contact, and there is no need to dry the bottles before filling them. Drop bottles in sanitizer, drain, and fill.
 
If you aren't rinsing them after the pbw soak then you are putting cleaner into your bottles.

QFT.

And this may be a long shot, but are you using campden tablets? Bottled water? Perhaps the flavor you're tasting is chlorine/chloramines from your tap water.
 
The bottles have no visble dirt or reside so they're soaked in a bucket of 5start pbw for about 30 mins and then soaked in a second bucket filled with starsan for around 30 mins as well.
QUOTE]

If you aren't rinsing them after the pbw soak then you are putting cleaner into your bottles.I've tasted mixed star-san and can not detect any flavor or odor from it.Here's a quote from another forum as a reply to your exact same question.

"I’d be really surprised if it was the StarSan causing the off flavor. A few years back, a former owner of HBA, Al, gave me a demo when I voiced similar concerns. He took a teaspoon of full strength StarSan and mixed it into a full glass of beer. We both tasted it, he to please me so I didn’t think he was trying to poison me. I could not tell it was in the beer. Al had stated that he was given the same demo from a high up rep in the company. Now that’s been many years ago, but I wouldn’t think the StarSan formula could have changed that much; I could be wrong though."

I have the 2 oz packets of PBW. The instructions on the back say to soak in PBW and then soak in starsan. Underneath that in all capital letters it says "do not rinse"

One batch was made with ozarka spring water and the 2nd was made with tap water than was run thru a Pur water filter and then boiled for 15 mins before adding the extract.

No special tablets or anything like that. Just the can of montmellick extract, 2.5 lb corn sugar. The LHBS recommended adding sugar or DME to the extract since the single can itself wouldn't make 5 gallons. The stout was make with DME dark and the brown ale with corn sugar.
 
I stopped doing canned prehopped extract kits because no matter if it was a light ale or stout I could taste this odd flavor. I also had issues getting extract to reach final gravities listed. Well a year later, I taste one of those bottles and the taste is gone.

So what am I saying? Well I think as a noob, like I was, extract kits are great because of how easy they are, but terrible on instructions. My suggestion for you is, if you gonna keep using them. Dont use the yeast that comes with them. Buy some S-05 or s04. Then when fermenting , keep ther temps low 60-68 to reduce esters/flavors. AND by no means should you even consider bottling untill after 3-4 weeks. After Bottling leave it alone for 3 weeks. Then just hide some and come back to them a month or 2 later. You will have great beer. Trust me.

On mine, I think my noobness caused me to hurry the process, ending with beer that had not finished. Get yourself a hydrometer . The carbonation in the bottle brings out some of the flavors that you couldnt detect a bottling time. Good luck.
 
I always rinse bottles with my tap water. I don't believe in no rinse chemicals, the chemical will adhere to the surface of the container in small amount. Water is what beer is made of, why add chemicals?. I remember the ouchless bandages, damn they hurt.
 
QFT.

And this may be a long shot, but are you using campden tablets? Bottled water? Perhaps the flavor you're tasting is chlorine/chloramines from your tap water.

I wonder about this as well. I just mentioned in another thread that I had four batches in a row that had a harsh flavor...like hairspray, or maybe how idophor smells. This occurred after switching from bottled spring water to tap water via a white RV hose and charcoal filter. The filter is said to take out chlorine, but maybe not chloramines. In my case I went back to spring water and the flavor went away.

To the OP...what's you water source?
 
Without knowing more, I'd blame the canned extract. Try switching extracts, to a fresher extract. I know that austinhomebrew.com has extract that is fresh, and sold by however much you need (not canned). Or try a recipe with dry malt extract. I've never had a good canned extract, except for the Alexander's malt extract I used for my Dead Guy clone.

Sanitation is a huge issue, but I'm not sure that's the problem here. It could be phenols from chlorine or chloramines in the water, but that's usually a "band aid" taste.
 
A hydrometer and wort chiller are on my shopping list. I'm thinking about doing the next batch with either a different brand of prehopped extract or go to the unhopped extract with fresh hops and grains.
 
+1 to sanitizing on bottling day, bottle while they are still wet and you won't have any issues that can be attributed to the starsan. If you still have off-flavors I would blame the extract/water/process that you are using.
 
I have the 2 oz packets of PBW. The instructions on the back say to soak in PBW and then soak in starsan. Underneath that in all capital letters it says "do not rinse"
QUOTE]

From 5-star's PDF on P.B.W.
When using P.B.W. in food processing areas the equipment that has been cleaned
must be rinsed with potable water. Just prior to use, sanitize the equipment in
accordance with public health standards.

Rinse the PBW off.Don't rinse the starsan.
 
A hydrometer and wort chiller are on my shopping list. I'm thinking about doing the next batch with either a different brand of prehopped extract or go to the unhopped extract with fresh hops and grains.

I'd definitely ditch the prehopped extract. I'd buy a kit that had fresh extract (I prefer dry, or fresh liquid extract), and grains, and hops. A hydrometer is a necessity. A hydrometer really is the only way to ensure you don't have bottle bombs.
 
Also, if you are going to use a "No-Rinse" sanitizer, make sure you use the amount that makes it a no rinse solution.

+1 - the American way isn't the right way here (if 1 tablespoon is good; 1 cup must be better).

If you read the ingredients on iodophor - that stuff is down right bad for you if you are using too strong of a concentration.
 
I'd definitely ditch the prehopped extract. I'd buy a kit that had fresh extract (I prefer dry, or fresh liquid extract), and grains, and hops. A hydrometer is a necessity. A hydrometer really is the only way to ensure you don't have bottle bombs.

It had been bottled for around a month. Nothing blew up, but it did have good loud champagne like pop when opening the swingtop bottles.
 
+1 - the American way isn't the right way here (if 1 tablespoon is good; 1 cup must be better).

If you read the ingredients on iodophor - that stuff is down right bad for you if you are using too strong of a concentration.

Thats what I was wondering about is that the way I was sanitizing the bottles left too much of a residue in the bottles. Some things I've seen like vinator look like they wouldn't put more than a small amount in the bottle which would drain out. I was dunking the bottles in a bucket of starsan until the stopped bubbling so that the whole bottle was full and then dumping it back into the bucket. They left alot of bubbles and foam inside the bottle which disappeared when dry. From everything I've read I'm not entirely sure its to do with the starsan, but something to consider.
 
It's almost guaranteed NOT to be the starsan.

I'd start with using campden tablets. Then using fresh, unhopped extract. And rinsing after using pbw (but not after star san). See how that goes, and if you still have problems, report back.
 
Corrosive to skin and eye, contains Phosphoric Acid. Harmful if swallowed. Do not get in eyes, on skin or on clothing. Wear protective goggles and clothing when using. Avoid contamination of food. DO NOT MIX STAR SAN WITH CHLORINATED CLEANERS AS CHLORINE GAS WILL RESULT. Do not use or store near heat or open flame.See label for more precautionary information.

Here is the link. http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/tech/starsan.pdf
 
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