I was at my local watering hole today and asked the owner if they had any empty kegs for sale. She stated that she had an empty sanke keg that the company had not picked up for over 3 months... She offered it to me me for 30 bucks(cost of the deposit)... She also said she has been calling the company for over 90 days to pick it up with no response... I am going to buy this keg regardless... just wanted to know if it was ethical or not...
Ethics?
- Thread starter GySgtLynn
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sudsmcgee
Well-Known Member
Hey, if they don't want it after multiple calls, it's yours for $30.
Not that it matters anyway if the keg says AB on it.
Not that it matters anyway if the keg says AB on it.
subliminalurge
Well-Known Member
Legally, it's still their keg.
But you asked about ethics. The owners have been given ample opportunity to retrieve their property and have, by their actions, made it clear that they don't want it back.
Take the keg and use it for your own purposes with a clear conscience.
If anyone is being unethical, it's the brewery that expects their paying customers (the bars) to also serve as free storage for their inventory of empty kegs. Sorry, I know this is a sore subject around here, but once a bar (or anyone else) has made an honest effort to return an empty keg and are refused, than that keg is free game.
But you asked about ethics. The owners have been given ample opportunity to retrieve their property and have, by their actions, made it clear that they don't want it back.
Take the keg and use it for your own purposes with a clear conscience.
If anyone is being unethical, it's the brewery that expects their paying customers (the bars) to also serve as free storage for their inventory of empty kegs. Sorry, I know this is a sore subject around here, but once a bar (or anyone else) has made an honest effort to return an empty keg and are refused, than that keg is free game.
I agree. Keg ethics is tricky, but if a good-faith effort was made to return the keg to its rightful owner (which sure sounds like it was in this case), I'm going to say that you can go ahead and buy the keg in good conscious.
rico567
Well-Known Member
I didn't, either. And I don't think the OP has been resolved yet.....so let's move this into a slightly different situation.
You're visiting a friend. They have a nice Harley-Davidson in their garage, a model you've been looking for. You ask if they're interested in selling, and they say no, they're just storing it for another friend. Trouble is, the friend has left it there for a year, hasn't called, and your friend hasn't been able to raise them at all to try to get them to pick up their motorcycle.
I'm sure you've figured out the denouement (we have to ignore the part about the title, by the way....we'll assume the title was signed over to them for some reason, so that the legal part is clear, but the original owner made it clear that he was coming back for it at some point). Your friend offers to sell you the motorcycle for what he regards as a year's storage fee, $500. Ignoring everything else, including the market value of the motorcycle, are you ethically compromised by buying it?
You're visiting a friend. They have a nice Harley-Davidson in their garage, a model you've been looking for. You ask if they're interested in selling, and they say no, they're just storing it for another friend. Trouble is, the friend has left it there for a year, hasn't called, and your friend hasn't been able to raise them at all to try to get them to pick up their motorcycle.
I'm sure you've figured out the denouement (we have to ignore the part about the title, by the way....we'll assume the title was signed over to them for some reason, so that the legal part is clear, but the original owner made it clear that he was coming back for it at some point). Your friend offers to sell you the motorcycle for what he regards as a year's storage fee, $500. Ignoring everything else, including the market value of the motorcycle, are you ethically compromised by buying it?
Gunny, go for it. They left it, and from a legal standpoint, they do have some claim, but ethically, I'd say you're in the clear. They made a good faith effort to return it, apparently numerous times, so you should stand with your conscience clear.
Assuming you don't try and fill it this Thursday. You should be too busy.
Semper fi!
- Sgt. D. West, USMC
Assuming you don't try and fill it this Thursday. You should be too busy.
Semper fi!- Sgt. D. West, USMC
Deposits are to cover you in case of loss or damage to the property. You can really do whatever you want with anything that you paid a deposit on. It's a simple deal between two parties, you return said object and get your money back. If not, the other party keeps the money.
Think of it like an apartment deposit...You pay them X amount. Then it's your choice if you wish to leave it a mess and not claim your money back. This is their method of covering themselves when the apartment is not relinquished in proper condition.
Think of it like an apartment deposit...You pay them X amount. Then it's your choice if you wish to leave it a mess and not claim your money back. This is their method of covering themselves when the apartment is not relinquished in proper condition.
davefleck
Well-Known Member
That is how I got my 3 kegs. Breckenridge brewery had been storing them for Sam Adams for 5 yrs despite many calls. From the smell of the beer shower it was pretty old beer
No major legal ramifications. As a deposit was paid, really, the contract is fulfilled by them keeping the deposit. That's pretty much it.
If your example used the box that the Harley came in, you would have a decent comparison. Using the Harley as your example is the equivalent of the beer that was in the keg.
In NY, 100% proof-positive, legally checked and confirmed, you can keep a keg with ZERO criminality involved. In NY, the vessel containing any product is legally sold with the product. A brewery can attempt a civil proceeding, but they will likely lose (I have not been able to confirm this part). Because of this, the keg deposit in NY is astronomical (I believe it is close to $100 now).
I hate to admit it, but I sort of don't mind when this argument comes up because after seeing it countless times, I decided to do the actual legal research last year. I'm have no idea how it works in other states, but it is perfectly legal in NY to acquire a keg this way.
If the deposit actually represents the average depreciated value of the kegs out in circulation, I would agree that there is no issue keeping it. The issue is with states where the deposit prices is down to 1/3rd of the replacement cost which is also too close to the scrap value of the stainless.
cimirie
Well-Known Member
Bobby_M said:
I don't 100% buy it. I get what you are saying, but a distributor/brewery/store can charge whatever deposit they like. Sure, the state mandates the minimum in many cases. If the mandatory deposit is too low for a owner's taste, charge more. As the owner of the keg, you set the price, so if your deposit isn't enough to cover your loss, whose fault is that?
warex
Well-Known Member
For that price my fingers would have rug burn because of how fast I was getting my wallet out.
ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
Introducing something with a recorded title creates a different situation. It doesn't really make sense about the title and it doesn't make sense to compare these items.
The real issue is simply whether the brewery abandoned the property to the bar or still has property rights in the keg. After 90 days, I don't know, that may not be that long under the sales contract. It might speak to how long the bar has to hold the keg, etc. There's a lot we don't know that might determine whether the keg is abandoned or not. Whether the brewery ends up being mad about the keg or not will probably be less of an issue of legal troubles and more about the brewery/distributor not supplying that bar anymore.
iaefebs
Well-Known Member
Isn't California a three tier system? The distributor is responsible for picking up the keg and not the Brewery. The bar owner should be talking to whoever delivered the keg.
I am not sure of the exact time frame ( I can look on my contracts) but once you try to return a purchased item ( recision clause) and the seller refuses to pick it up, it is yours. I am not sure this translates to the keg deposit but I say buy it. I have 2 kegs. One I literally found in a ditch , and another that a friend found in someones trash pile behind their barn. The one I found I know had been there for at least 2 years.
JohnTheBrewist
Well-Known Member
Gunny, California has some pretty strict keg laws. In most cases, when you receive a keg you sign a legal form that tells you that it legally must be returned regardless of deposit. The form comes with a numbered sticker for tracking. If the keg in question has that tracking sticker, then there is a record of your friend receiving the keg and not returning it.
However, I don't know how this works for bars,restaurants etc. I'm guessing that the distributor delivers beer often enough that opportunity was there to pick it up. You should ask her about the procedure they have for receiving and returning kegs. If everything is tightly accounted for, you may not want to take it. If things are loosey-goosey, they may not know what they've delivered or picked up, and couldn't readily hold her accountable for it.
However, I don't know how this works for bars,restaurants etc. I'm guessing that the distributor delivers beer often enough that opportunity was there to pick it up. You should ask her about the procedure they have for receiving and returning kegs. If everything is tightly accounted for, you may not want to take it. If things are loosey-goosey, they may not know what they've delivered or picked up, and couldn't readily hold her accountable for it.
Ah, but it most states, the state sets the maximum deposit for the keg- which is usually $30-$50 while a keg costs $150 or so. The deposit doesn't cover the cost of the keg, and it is stealing to keep a keg for the deposit in those cases.
In this case, I agree that the keg was not retrieved by the owner, and they gave it to the bar. The bar owner can now sell it.
Aunt_Ester
Well-Known Member
This thread is silly.
I'd trust that this isn't the first keg of beer the bar's ever sold, and that the owner knows who usually picks up their empties.
mobilecabinworks
Well-Known Member
I wish Oregon had a max for the deposit on a keg. You can put down upwards of $110 for a deposit here.
OP
OP
GySgtLynn
Well-Known Member
I will talk to the owner again tomorrow to make she wants to sell it.. But from conversation with her today she wants it gone.. I am specualting but I think it's from a company that is no longer on tap there, since it's been that long. Thanks for all the advice.. If the owner is comfortable selling it... then I'm comfortable buying it.
android
Well-Known Member
rug burn?
sudsmcgee
Well-Known Member
He keeps a rug in his back pocket.
JohnTheBrewist
Well-Known Member
He keeps his wallet in his crotch.
lgilmore
Well-Known Member
That's what I would think that the company doesn't have a tap here anymore. For the distributor the cost of coming out (gas,labor) to pick up one empty, especially if they aren't dropping off, isn't worth it.
I was at a party and talking to a sales manager of a local AB distributor and the problem they are having is what to do about small orders, as they carry a wide variety of specialty beers too. He's dealing with a resturant 25 miles away, that wants one case of beer. the cost of getting it there means they make pennies.
This could be a similar case.
I was at a party and talking to a sales manager of a local AB distributor and the problem they are having is what to do about small orders, as they carry a wide variety of specialty beers too. He's dealing with a resturant 25 miles away, that wants one case of beer. the cost of getting it there means they make pennies.
This could be a similar case.
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