Pitchin' Dregs from Jolly Pumpkin

Hi guys.
I made my attempt at the CYBI Bam Biere clone recipe a few weeks ago and have had some interesting results.
First of all, I scaled up the recipe for a 10 gallon boil that would yield about 8 gallons of wort. I racked 5.25 gallons to a carboy and pitched a fresh tube of WLP550 and the remaining 2.5 gallons over to a small carboy and pitched 2x Bam Biere dregs and 1x ESBam dregs...

Day 2, the dregs carboy took off - krausen looked good... all was on track. When I tasted it after a week, it was already getting sour... thought it was strange, but verified that the pH was actually 0.5 point lower than the WLP550 batch. After the second week (yesterday) it is VERY sour... bordering on unpleasant... both are at TG... yielded about 3.5% ABV (was going for a session beer, after all).

What's going on in the dregs beer? Obviously some lactic acid bacteria has taken strong hold... but I haven't read about anything that sours that quickly... I intend to blend the two and bottle... but I don't want any gushers!!

Thanks!
Mike

Funny, I started a 10 gallon batch of the CYBI Bam Biere recipe 3 days ago. I'm growing up some dregs from a Calabaza Blanca and Madrugada Obscura (my favorite!) to throw in the secondary. WLP550 is fermenting the wort right now.

I think to avoid gushers, you'll want the blended beer to sit for a while. I'm not sure how long though. From the CYBI show it sounded like Bam Biere is rather fast for a sour beer.

You'll find the info you need in the Similar threads box below. Note the first thread.

Revvy said:

You'll find the info you need in the Similar threads box below. Note the first thread.

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Those posts were certainly interesting, but all discussed not getting discernible sourness for a few months... and the first post is about mold??? Definitely no mold going on here... and it's WAY sour after 2 weeks fermenting...

Prion - the hardest part is going to be figuring out the right ratio! Might rack off 4 gallons of the straight beer into a 6.5 gallon bucket and add 1/4 gal at a time until I like it... we'll see... I still need to add the oak and dry hops!!!

Thanks for the replies!
Mike

JP beers start out pretty mild, if you try a young one. I think they just increase in sourness over time until they reach an end point. One Calabaza Blanca I had was almost not sour at all.

Maybe it would be best to inoculate your un-soured beer with the sour one, and wait a month or so for the gravity to drop to a safe level so you can bottle without worry about gushers.

I don't have any experience with brewing sour beers, as a disclaimer. I'm only starting.

It's my understanding that a reason why your beer is so sour is because JP doesn't ferment with the bacteria in primary. They only do that in barrels and in the bottles. So that way the lactic sour twang isn't overwhelming like you seem to have ran into. What's the pH of the sour portion right now?

Next time I would add the microbes at the middle/end of fermentation. The Lactobacillus and Pediococcus (if JP uses it) will ferment all available glucose they can get their grubby little cell membranes on. That all leads to increased acidity. One of the reasons metabolically many people add bacteria to already fermented beer is to control the acidity. The reason the bacteria can still ferment sugars into acid at that point is the b-glucosidase that the brett produces. The b-glucosidase liberates glucose and makes it available for itself and the bacteria (I assume it's a sort of symbiosis). I could be wrong but this is my understanding of the process, I don't want to come off like an expert that is infallible.

I know that RR Santification is fermented with pedio, brett, and lacto all in the beginning.

Prionburger said:

JP beers start out pretty mild, if you try a young one. I think they just increase in sourness over time until they reach an end point. One Calabaza Blanca I had was almost not sour at all.

Maybe it would be best to inoculate your un-soured beer with the sour one, and wait a month or so for the gravity to drop to a safe level so you can bottle without worry about gushers.

I don't have any experience with brewing sour beers, as a disclaimer. I'm only starting.

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I just had a calabaza blanca and it was not sour at all. Not one bit. The date on the bottle was 1/13/11 so not super fresh. I thought maybe I had just gotten one of the beers they make without bugs.

I've got a bottle of La Roja from Nov 07 in my cellar, will these bugs still be effective?

Only one way to tell.

jtejedor: That bottle is actually pretty fresh by JP standards. It must have been kept refrigerated for that time. I had one from that same batch just a couple weeks ago, and it developed a pretty nice sourness and funk from being stored at room temperature.

phished880 said:

I've got a bottle of La Roja from Nov 07 in my cellar, will these bugs still be effective?

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When you open that bottle be ready with a couple glasses.. I've had a couple JP bottles that were over a year or two old and they were like volcanoes..I'd drink that soon.

Mustangj said:

When you open that bottle be ready with a couple glasses.. I've had a couple JP bottles that were over a year or two old and they were like volcanoes..I'd drink that soon.

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Their quality control has gotten a lot better in recent years but I agree, I've had 2 year old bottles from 2006 that were gushers.

Prionburger said:

jtejedor: That bottle is actually pretty fresh by JP standards. It must have been kept refrigerated for that time. I had one from that same batch just a couple weeks ago, and it developed a pretty nice sourness and funk from being stored at room temperature.

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I admit I don't know much about the brewery and the descriptions on the beer don't come out and say that wild yeast is used so I figured maybe some of their beers are done without bugs. I really wanted to get oro de calabaza that has been my fav from them by far but it was $20 freaking dollars a bottle . I am making my first 2 sour beers right now and that one that had JP dregs in it is starting to get a nice pellicle, it started getting funky after only a month or two.

I made the CYBI Bam Biere clone in January. I pitched a starter of Bam dregs about 3 days into fermentation. While our methods were different, mine also went sour surprisingly fast (mine never got too sour, however). I have read anecdotal accounts that oxygenated worts will encourage sourness from some brett strains much more than an unoxygenated wort. Could be that they generate more sourness under stress as well (maybe from underpitching?).

smokinghole said:

It's my understanding that a reason why your beer is so sour is because JP doesn't ferment with the bacteria in primary. They only do that in barrels and in the bottles. So that way the lactic sour twang isn't overwhelming like you seem to have ran into. What's the pH of the sour portion right now?

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3 weeks in and the dregs batch is starting to taste pretty good... you tell me... what's the pH? I think the dregs is about 3.5 and the bug-free is about 4.5... wish I could make a real measurement!!

The SG hasn't moved in either batch in 2 weeks, so I think I'm going to rack the primary batch to a bucket and blend until I like the taste, then dry hop (1 oz Liberty) and oak for a week... then keg it... should be awesome! ...and I'll probably have half the sour dregs batch left!!
Cheers!
Mike

You're definitely between 3 and 4 and my judgement leads more towards 3. Know anyone that's a student at a university? If they're in a chem/bio class they will be able to test the pH for you with an accurate meter. If I were there I'd take a sample to school for you to get a real measurement.

smokinghole said:

You're definitely between 3 and 4 and my judgement leads more towards 3. Know anyone that's a student at a university? If they're in a chem/bio class they will be able to test the pH for you with an accurate meter. If I were there I'd take a sample to school for you to get a real measurement.

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Just sent the picture to my wife (working in the lab tonight) - she says the sour pH looks like it's closer to 3 and the 'straight' batch is 4.5... sounds to me like it's time to get this sucker kegged!!