Rice Wine Stout

I'm pulling out of the main thread to document my experiment with the ultimate goal of a: Double Russian Imperial Oaked Rice Wine Stout. I've made a few batches of the rice wine and it's ok but a little too sweet for me. Just started a new type of batch:
-12 cups water with 1/4 lb roasted barley steeped in it and grain pulled at 165deg (extract/specialty grain style)
-then added 1/4 ounce EKG
-when it started boiling I added 6 cups of rice and turned down to simmer until done about 30 min
-Cooled and Added 2 ground balls and threw in gallon jar

Basically a somewhat standard stout recipe just replacing the base grain with rice if I can get something decent tasting I want to age it on oak.

Also a fellow brewer friend is trying to make a 20+% beer (Utopias) using traditional methods, I'm trying to beat him using the power of the balls.

Will update
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Only been a few days but the liquid is pulling that roasted barley color out. In the pic the dark spots are the liquid .

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Sounds cool, following along, good luck!

Here it is one week in smells awesome cool color now just have to wait a couple more weeks to taste.
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Interesting idea.

Definitely watching this.

I should mention I did a batch previous to this with half rice and half flaked barley that I hopped with a little magnum.....it too smelled good all the way through....and is one of the most awful things I've ever tried. Hoping this turns out a little better. Definitely cool to see that rice soak up the black wort when it cooked, turn just a little brown from it, and now sweat out that black goodness again. It's like a magic trick.


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Intresting!!

Quick update:

Here it is separating nicely smells great

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Current batch is almost all brown jasmine rice that I bought at an Asian market but just saw this at wallyworld $5 for 5lb (product of Vietnam)
All future trials will be this because:
1) consistency
2) availability
3) I'm cheaper than a homeless george costanza (this should probably be #1)

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Also because Double Russian Imperial Rice Wine Stout is a lot to say I'm now just calling it ASIAN IMPERIAL STOUT (or at least I will if I can make a drinkable product)

I've left the regular rice wines to age for 3-5 weeks and haven't noticed much difference since I'm itching to try this what's the consensus can I harvest at three or should I let it go longer? The sooner I taste the sooner I can make adjustments and start the next batch.


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Also, I'm set for ALOT of trials. (Approx 106 Fermenting Balls of Fury)

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This is exciting... a new direction to go in brewing. Just the other day I didn't even know yeast had balls.... Now I have several packages ordered. I'm not fond of "Rocky Mountain Oysters"............ hopefully I'll feel differently about yeast balls.

What I don't particularly want is a lacto fermentation that I don't have direct control of. I'm hoping that the lacto action people have been getting is from the mixing of the yeast balls with their hands........ Something I will avoid doing..... perhaps latex gloves dipped in StarSan. If I have lactobacillus in my ferment, I want it to be my option......

There is of course the second option of using AG300 and yeast, but that defeats the purpose. I want the live mold to do the processing. If lacto is part of the rice wine process, that's not a problem for rice wine and other related drinks that use lacto sourness, but it's not what I'm looking for......... I can get lacto flavor easily enough as it is. Perhaps Koji is a more pure culture, and I should be looking in that direction.


H.W.

Owly055 said:

This is exciting... a new direction to go in brewing. Just the other day I didn't even know yeast had balls.... Now I have several packages ordered. I'm not fond of "Rocky Mountain Oysters"............ hopefully I'll feel differently about yeast balls.

What I don't particularly want is a lacto fermentation that I don't have direct control of. I'm hoping that the lacto action people have been getting is from the mixing of the yeast balls with their hands........ Something I will avoid doing..... perhaps latex gloves dipped in StarSan. If I have lactobacillus in my ferment, I want it to be my option......

There is of course the second option of using AG300 and yeast, but that defeats the purpose. I want the live mold to do the processing. If lacto is part of the rice wine process, that's not a problem for rice wine and other related drinks that use lacto sourness, but it's not what I'm looking for......... I can get lacto flavor easily enough as it is. Perhaps Koji is a more pure culture, and I should be looking in that direction.


H.W.

Click to expand...

I've never have had any sourness in any of my batches and I've made quite a few.
Have you checked out the original thread? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f243/making-traditional-rice-wine-cheap-fun-different-361095/

I haven't made that many batches but I've also never had anything turn out sour. I don't treat the process much different than beer as far as sanitation goes.


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ChefRex said:

I've never have had any sourness in any of my batches and I've made quite a few.
Have you checked out the original thread? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f243/making-traditional-rice-wine-cheap-fun-different-361095/

Click to expand...

That's good to know.......

Where I really want to go is unmalted barley, and see if I can produce something that is identifiably "beer" using this process. I've already used hop tea a couple of times for "corrective hoppery"...... and it works quite well. There is no reason I can see why hops and crystal malt couldn't be used at the tail end of the process, or why bottling sugar couldn't be used, except that you don't have the process control you do with beer brewing. You have no OG and FG, or any way to actually confirm that primary and secondary fermentation are done.

I'm wondering about a continuing process. .......... How would you add grain and remove trub, using some of what is in the fermenter as "starter", draining off the "wine".


H.W.

My lightly hopped half rice half flaked barley was definitely not beer or even more beer than the pure rice batch it was just really dry and nasty. I have some unmalted seed barley that's been sitting in the garage from a failed home malting experiment but never tried it. I think people have tried the starter experiment in the main thread but I'm not sure how successful it's been. I can't pretend to even understand let alone unlock the secrets of the balls. Once crushed it should just be called pixie dust.


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Zibe said:

My lightly hopped half rice half flaked barley was definitely not beer or even more beer than the pure rice batch it was just really dry and nasty. I have some unmalted seed barley that's been sitting in the garage from a failed home malting experiment but never tried it. I think people have tried the starter experiment in the main thread but I'm not sure how successful it's been. I can't pretend to even understand let alone unlock the secrets of the balls. Once crushed it should just be called pixie dust.


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Click to expand...

It's going to be dry when you use yeast balls....... the enzyme continues converting starch throughout the fermentation...... This looks like a place where crystal is important if you want any sweetness at all.

There are several things to consider............ One is does convertase produce maltose, or just glucose. I believe I've read that it produces glucose primarily. If that's the case the result will be something akin to what you would have fermenting just corn sugar, without that distinctly malty beery taste.
The other thing to consider is that the attenuation is probably very high, so we won't have that residual sweetness we expect from beer, and which we counter with hops.
Yet another consideration is that all malts are roasted to some extent, even pilsner malt. That tells me that perhaps roasting the barley a bit before cooking and using it might contribute flavor that simple boiled barley doesn't have to offer.

That tells me that we need to look at introducing unfermentable sugars, and the way to do that is with crystal malts.......... But will the convertase break them down and defeat that strategy? I frankly don't have any idea. Perhaps there really is no redeeming value in this....... as far as beer lovers are concerned.

At this point, I have far more questions than I have answers.............


H.W.

I don't have answers to your questions about the enzyme properties, but you can get a sweeter end product by straining and pasteurizing earlier. Without the OG/FG measurements, the only real way to judge the point at which to stop is tasting (and later, with experience).

My favorite batches have been the ones I stop a bit early.

How have you been pasteurizing?


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Zibe said:

How have you been pasteurizing?


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Click to expand...

Heat.

I harvest into a large container (large Ball jars) and then heat pasteurize
(follow the timings on the bottle pasteurization sticky). Then I usually let those cold crash for a while until they separate, then harvest the clear liquid. Then Either keep cold crashing the remaining lees or filter it to get the rest of the liquid (not a fan of the cloudy wine).

The heat also seems to help the wine separate more quickly when cold crashing, IMO.

Obviously this is a problem..... With the enzymes active at room temp, and no "mash out", and a yeast that will attenuate far beyond what we are used to, pasteurization is really the only option to stop the process where we want it to stop. That means that to bottle condition we would then need to innoculate with a suitable yeast........... Or we could carbonate artificially.

Is a malty "beer" character possible, or is the result of this ferment going to be neutral.... as if we were fermenting glucose?................ Assuming barley instead of rice.


H.W.

The other option would be to bottle prior to pasteurization. Bottle 1 in plastic and use it as a tester. When it becomes rigid, pasteurize all bottles.

This seems to boil down to a process where bottle conditioning is simply not an option. What I'm hearing is that you really have to stop the fermentation process based on the desired sweetness. In stopping the fermentation, the option of bottle conditioning goes away. There really is no way to predictably ferment to a specific level of carbonation and then stop it.


H.W.

I stole a little sample today. Tasted decent actually but real sweet. The sweetness seems to be masking any roasty flavors so probably give it another week and try again (it's only 2.5 weeks old now) it's separating real nice though. After the last total failure batch with the flaked barley I'm encouraged.


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Just after I say I've never had a batch taste sour....took a three week sample and sure enough it tastes sour. Now question since I haven't read the whole other thread were they getting this with strictly rice batches or only if another grain was introduced? Also very little roast taste. So taking the advice on this thread- may have to stop fermentation early and pasteurize cause it tasted great a week or so ago (just not roasty) so also gonna double the roasted barley. Probably have to start tasting at two weeks and stop it when it tastes good unless anyone else has better advice.


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Zibe said:

Just after I say I've never had a batch taste sour....took a three week sample and sure enough it tastes sour. Now question since I haven't read the whole other thread were they getting this with strictly rice batches or only if another grain was introduced? Also very little roast taste. So taking the advice on this thread- may have to stop fermentation early and pasteurize cause it tasted great a week or so ago (just not roasty) so also gonna double the roasted barley. Probably have to start tasting at two weeks and stop it when it tastes good unless anyone else has better advice.


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Click to expand...

I'm wondering if it's a lacto or an aceto sour? I'm also wondering if it originates from the yeast balls themselves, or is introduced in the process which is anything but "sanitary". The process involves crushing the yeast balls.... which is NOT done in a sterile environment, nor is the mixing done in a sterile environment. Is it the process or the innoculant........ or both?
I'm also wondering weather the sourness is intentional...... A characteristic of rice wine made in this way? Is it pasteurized to stop the souring at a desirable level? There are a lot more questions than answers.

H.W.

I think you need to dive in and try it out at this point. Even if you end up dumping it, a batch will cost you a couple bucks in rice and yeast.

BGBC said:

I think you need to dive in and try it out at this point. Even if you end up dumping it, a batch will cost you a couple bucks in rice and yeast.

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I started my first attempt at rice wine yesterday. Picked up 25 pounds of cheap rice from Costco for about $10, cooked up what I expected to make a gallon of cooked rice.... I overshot by about 50% (8 cups of rice & 16 cups of water), mixed in 2 crushed yeast balls. I hope they are good balls....... I didn't hear even the slightest groan when I crushed the balls ;-)

Followed the standard procedure this time........ Next go around, I think I'll put some dark crystal malt in the water I boil the rice in........... I don't have a steamer...... perhaps boil the crystal first. This is that crappy sticky white rice that the Japanese people love so much and Americans hate. Interesting how radically different our tastes tend to be. It should be good for rice wine, or to add to beer.........nothing else as far as I'm concerned!

H.W.

Owly055 said:

I'm wondering if it's a lacto or an aceto sour? I'm also wondering if it originates from the yeast balls themselves, or is introduced in the process which is anything but "sanitary". The process involves crushing the yeast balls.... which is NOT done in a sterile environment, nor is the mixing done in a sterile environment. Is it the process or the innoculant........ or both?
I'm also wondering weather the sourness is intentional...... A characteristic of rice wine made in this way? Is it pasteurized to stop the souring at a desirable level? There are a lot more questions than answers.

H.W.

Click to expand...

Definitely a kind of lactic twinge, acetic would be noticeable right off the bat, but may seems moreso with the roasty flavors. Definitely in the balls themselves. Many large producers of this kind of wine (usually for distilling) use qu, which is a brick of yeast, mold, and bugs cultured from the air dying process it undergoes, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of that is in these jiuqu so that the home consumer can enjoy the same loved flavors.