Making Traditional Sake! The difference between it and Rice wine.

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I ordered copy of Sake USA by Fred Eckhardt. It arrived today and is in good condition except for some highlights and liner notes from a previous reader. Pretty funny reading his liner notes and his equipment list scribbled on the last page of the book. It's obvious to me the previous owner was a novice homebrewer (ex: Six airlocks on hand scratched equipment list for one 5 gallon fermenter?!) who probably brewed one or two batches and shelved the book for good.
 
Ok, I just sampled and bottled 48 ounces of the accidental mixture I made with the overflow rice from the Sake jar and the rice wine. I yielded a little over 48 fluid ounces of straw golden Sake from the batch brewing at room temperatures for two weeks. The addition of the overflow koji starter and lalvin yeast had a dramatically increased effect on the decomposition of the rice starches and the overall taste of the final product. There was much more liquid after the final lees pressing.

I did my usual routine of 1/2 cup of hot water to 1/2 teaspoon of bentonite mixed into the liquid in a sanitized bowl, a nice slow trickle making sure it mixed in thoroughly. I then took the bowl and poured it back into the cleaned and sanitized cracker jar and pasteurized the whole batch. I then shook up the wine good to re-mix the bentonite and let it cold crash in the fridge for 48 hours. The remaining oji (lees and yeast) fell like a rock into an almost gel-like layer 1/4" all along the bottom of the cracker jar.

I used my trusty aqua-lifter aquarium pump to mechanically siphon off the clear liquid into four 12 ounce flensburger amber swing top bottles and then re-pasteurized them for good measure as one or more of them will probably wind up a gift for friends. I want to age at least one bottle a good two months in the cold to see how it matures.

The color is a very clear straw color. You might not notice the yellow color except when you place it against a white background.

The taste is very Sake-like. It is dry and floral with alcohol and mineral notes. There is only the slightest amount of acidity, especially in comparison to some of the Chinese jiu's i've produced. I'm thinking with some cold conditioning, the alcohol and acidity of the young Sake will mellow quite well.

It's interesting to note how assertive the Koji and the Lalvin yeast completely dominated the fermentation in comparison to the Chinese yeast ball that was already in the batch. I'm sure that the yeast and mold from the yeast ball just never got a good foothold and the koji and lalvin yeast just beat it to the punch. I also detected no real off flavors from room temperature fermentation. It tasted like perfectly acceptable table Sake and will probably improve with age.

I can't wait to sample the traditionally made gallon of Sake around this time next week!
 
Yea lalvin K1v-1116 I have heard described as the original killer yeast. When put in the presence of most yeast types it will out compete them. I will be interested in seeing some tasting notes between the warm fermented Rice wine/Sake and the traditional Sake.
 
Ok now I was just wondering if anyone has added honey to the rice before adding yeast balls Maybe a mead saki. I might try this unless someone has a reason not to.
 
Ok now I was just wondering if anyone has added honey to the rice before adding yeast balls Maybe a mead saki. I might try this unless someone has a reason not to.

It's not necessary. Junmai Sake, which covers all forms of traditional Sake, adheres to a strict purity law similar to the German purity law for beer. The only ingredients allowed are: Rice, Water, Koji and yeast.

Yeast balls aren't used because there's no telling what types of bacteria and fungus are inside of that ball. They're typically local yeasts and fungus in the areas of Asia where the yeast balls are made. The Japanese like things a little more pure and controllable than that these days and strictly use one of about twenty types of yeasts approved by the Japanese Sake Council and only pure kome-koji to break down the rice and feed those yeast strains.

Home brewing in Japan is illegal, and recipes for Sake are tightly controlled and can take decades for a Toji (head brewer) to develop. Sake consumption is actually in decline in Japan although it is on the rise elsewhere in the world. With home brewing being legal in the USA, and with our natural curiosity to try to brew any flavor we can think of in beer, wine or any spirits, people are welcome to experiment and do some non-traditional brewing.

IMHO, adding honey to the Sake would be difficult to do during the ferment because honey is nearly 100% fermentable. It would only dry out the Sake and lend no sweetness or honey flavor to it in the ferment. Your best option for adding honey to back sweeten and flavor your Sake would be after you've fermented it, but before you pasteurized it.
 
Another point to honey in the primary is that honey is natures natural anti bacterial and anti fungel salve. If you add honey to a rice wine using the yeast ball or traditional sake then the honey may slow or inhibit the growth of the funguses needed to sacchrafy the rice starches into ferment able sugars. If you want a honey character I agree to add it only if back sweetening.
 
Awesome good points. Thanks I will try to back sweeten with it. Still think I will do a all batch for experimenting purpose.
 
Another point to honey in the primary is that honey is natures natural anti bacterial and anti fungel salve. If you add honey to a rice wine using the yeast ball or traditional sake then the honey may slow or inhibit the growth of the funguses needed to sacchrafy the rice starches into ferment able sugars. If you want a honey character I agree to add it only if back sweetening.

Honey is antimicrobial first because of the pH level and also for the propolis (containing various acids from plant sap). The average pH of honey is around 3.9 but it can vary a little from hive to hive. This is much more acidic than a lot of microbes can handle and the main reason why honey remains largely microbial free.

Just like star san acid sanitizer, once the pH of the honey is diluted with water above 5.0 on the pH scale, it loses it's antibiotic properties. Considering that honey is full of micro bits of antennae, bee hairs, pollen, tree and plant saps, you might consider adding the honey right after pressing the lees on your rice as a back sweetener, but then definitely pasteurizing the Sake or Rice Wine in a hot water bath to kill off any microbes accidentally introduced by the honey.
 
Holy crap, i'm exhausted. I just bottled five gallons of my andes mint stout that I let go about a month too long in the primary (doh!). It still tasted fine although the mint had faded a bit, so I added a teaspoon of mint extract which made it about perfect as a background note on the beer's aftertaste.

I also got to press the gallon of Traditional Sake. To be honest, I hadn't even looked at it once for the three weeks it fermented in my chest freezer. My andes mint stout kept it company, though. When I removed it, I was glad it hadn't krausened and overflowed. It was filled very very close to the top, only about 1" below the mouth of the jar. I pressed it in the usual way, bentonized it with a full tablespoon of bentonite powder to one full cup of boiling water, then sanitized the bell jar and poured it back into it for pasteurizing on the stove top. I had to use my 42 quart brewing pot to accommodate it. It's now sitting in my fridge cooling down. Here's what it looked like when it first came out of the fermenter at 50 degrees. Completely ready for pressing. Lovely soft canary color.

20130725_104036.jpg
 
Ok, I decided after five days of cold crashing the Sake to sample some. Holy crap is it good. It's got a great balance. Mineral notes come through with pure cool floral water balanced with a slight amount of alcohol. The aftertaste is like lightly salted cantaloupe. I'm so impressed at how amazingly well it turned out. No detectable acidity anywhere nor any off flavors even with a few mistakes along the way. It's really, really good and just what I wanted... A good balanced Sake with a lot of character that isn't super dry.
 
Ok, I decided after five days of cold crashing the Sake to sample some. Holy crap is it good. It's got a great balance. Mineral notes come through with pure cool floral water balanced with a slight amount of alcohol. The aftertaste is like lightly salted cantaloupe. I'm so impressed at how amazingly well it turned out. No detectable acidity anywhere nor any off flavors even with a few mistakes along the way. It's really, really good and just what I wanted... A good balanced Sake with a lot of character that isn't super dry.

Glad to hear. I have have had a few compliments on my sake from some non-brewers but was happy someone took the time to follow the steps and recipe as I outlined and post the results so I could see what their tasting notes are. I am especially happy with how the 1116 yeast is working even though it is not a traditional sake yeast since that was a recent experiment. I believe the floral notes are really accentuated with the 1116 yeast which I really like.

I never thought of the salted cantaloupe as a taste comparison but I could see that. I think I have a little more acidity than you do but you had much better control over the temps. I just brew this in the winter and go by the weather patterns and just bring the jar inside and back outside in the shade

Again thanks for posting and I hope others decide to take up this nice traditional recipe/method.
 
Interesting news to report. The combo rice wine+sake koji/lalvin yeast that i'd brewed at room temperature has now turned into gekkikan. I've had it bottled after pasteurization for three weeks in the fridge and it tastes like dirty water, just like a gekkikan. I think i've stumbled upon their "secret formula." ;)

The true Sake has a much better flavor and flavor characteristics. It's still floral on the nose, balanced on the tongue with a mineral water note and slight cantaloupe aftertaste.
 
Interesting news to report. The combo rice wine+sake koji/lalvin yeast that i'd brewed at room temperature has now turned into gekkikan. I've had it bottled after pasteurization for three weeks in the fridge and it tastes like dirty water, just like a gekkikan. I think i've stumbled upon their "secret formula." ;)

The true Sake has a much better flavor and flavor characteristics. It's still floral on the nose, balanced on the tongue with a mineral water note and slight cantaloupe aftertaste.
Did you stir the particulates back into the first batch, or sample it settled out?
 
After letting the traditional Sake condition for a little over a month now, it's still pretty amazing. The same flavors are really bright and shining right through. It appears to have survived pasteurization just fine and is pouring an extremely clear with just a faint hint of pale yellow. It's really nice. It tastes like slightly floral mineral water with flavors of cantaloupe in the middle and a very lifting, dry finish. It's just excellent and I can't believe how well it turned out on the first attempt.

I've brought various versions of Chinese Jiu to our local Jacksonville bottle share, along with a heck of a lot of homebrew, but I can't wait to spring this on my friends and fellow brewers. It's going to be completely unlike anything they've ever had. Most of them believe that gekkikan served boiling hot at the local steakhouses is the way to go with Sake. I can't wait to see the look on their faces.
 
Glad to hear you like it so much. I did a lot of research and a good bit of trial and error before I settled on my favorite technique. My only problem is I need a setup like yours. I just make this in the winter now when the weather is right. So I am out of the stuff quick and don't make much each year. But here in about 2-3 months I can give this another go.
 
I was able to find my fermenter, a small 14cu chest freezer, from a Sears outlet center. Most larger towns have one that sells "scratch and dent" appliances that arrive cosmetically damaged from overseas or during delivery/warehousing. Mine had a scratch on the back that I was able to over paint with a little white krylon metal paint, and it looks good as new. That, plus the scratch was on the back of the unit, so it wouldn't have shown anyway. I just wanted to protect the scratch from the humidity of living in a Florida garage.

I spent a whopping $75.00 on it and an additional $50 for an external temperature controller from my LHBS and it's been my fermentation chamber ever since. I can fit two 5 gallon buckets in it or one bucket and one ball lock keg and still have room for the CO2, valves/gauges, line and a picnic tap.
 
So I've been following the instructions in the first post. my kome koji is light grey and yellowish with fuzzys after about 40 hours.. It smells ok.. Can I keep using this or should I throw this and start over cause it's bad?? ImageUploadedByHome Brew1389756937.464244.jpg
 
It looks like the humidity is too high. If it gets a little soupy it will still be fine but that does look a bit off. I think you have another mold growing there. You may drop the humidity down a notch and if you are not covering the rice. Then loosely put a paper towel over making sure it is not touching. That way condensation does not drip on the rice.
 
It looks like the humidity is too high. If it gets a little soupy it will still be fine but that does look a bit off. I think you have another mild growing there. You may drop the humidity down a notch and if you are not covering the rice. Then loosely put a paper towel over making sure it is not touching. That way condensation does not drip on the rice.


Ok thanks for advice... I'm going to try again and lower the humidity
 
"You will find a lot of traditional recipes also using Epsom salt and Mortons salt substitute. That is usually if you are using a highly filtered water or RO water. I will be using spring Fiji water and plan on using a tiny portion of DAP. "1/8th tsp.""

What is DAP?
 
DAP is diammonium phosphate. Most home brew stores carry it. It is a yeast nutrient that looks like white or clear crystals.
 
As I'm sure my questions indicate - I'm struggling to understand the nature of the Koji mold organism.

I've had collegiate microbial coursework but no relevant experience/experimentation. The key question seems to be "when is the thing making enzymes and when is it alive".

You're starting with mold spores, I'm a first-timer with these organisms and have 1 jar going with inoculated rice bought at the store in the refrigerator section.

I like your description of how you germinate the mold and have a wet inoculated Koji [I think of it as a starter].

It seems clear that the spores themselves don't have any enzymatic action--or you'd never need to germinate them. It would also be biologically weird since the whole purpose of this organism posessing enzymes that break starches into sugars is that it can eat these sugars [unless the yeast get's 'em first!].

So the germinated spores turn into a mold--which like every other mold has long tendrils burrowing into what it's living on. It seems like it's an air breathing organism and "drowns" itself once it breaks down the rice starches so much that they collapse and we see the water coming out. But at this point it's got all these free floating enzymes that do their work until yeast comes along and snaps up the sugars for fermentation. But is that true? Does the yeast die when the water levels rise??

That's what I'd like to know more about. I hear folks trying to make their Koji mold produce spores that are capturing the mold on bread--presumably because the bread structure resists breaking down in the way that the moistened rice does. This argues for the mold only being active in a less than soaking wet environment as I never hear folks talk about the top of their Sake being covered in a fuzzy blue mold, but I can google Koji bread and see that same mold when it's fruiting and producing spores. Or for more google fun, try Aspergillus oryzae & EPA. :) But, conversely does that mean the stuff isn't alive?

Enzymes made by the mold are secreted into its environment to do the good dissolving work needed. Would reusing the leftover solid matter at the end of a batch be a sufficient experiment to determine if the mold organism made all the enzyme it was ever going to make early on or if it continued to live and grow [and possibly even reproduce asexually] for the whole time--despite not showing evidence of sexual reproduction, i.e. spores? In such an experiment the enzyme proportion would decrease with each transfer if it was true they were made only initially and not replenished.

Now, enzymes themselves are not exactly getting destroyed [heat], but I gather that they don't last forever either--so it's not as if 10 molecules of beta amlyase are going to rip through kilograms of rice. If that was true then all us beer makers would throw 1lb of malt into 10lb of unmalted grain, cover, and leave till next weekend...

Anyway, lets assume the correct proportions of Koji inoculated rice to regular rice has even TEN TIMES the amount of enzymes required to chop the required starches into sugars. If that were the case then I should expect to be able to reuse my leftovers to make [if not great Sake...then at least some successfully fermented product...] no more than 1 more batch. If the amount of enzyme present was really anything less than 10x the minimum necessary amount even producing 1 subsequent batch should not be successful.

If - on the other hand - there's a living mold organism in there, then there should be little difference in the observed rate of rice turning to sugary liquid [except the yeast would be there at the start].

As I've seen with beer, cheese, etc. - you can't always continue forever with leftovers as you tend to set up a real ecosystem. Meaning that there may be more and more other types of organisms coming along for the ride.

I've got enough storebought Koji rice for a few gallons--but will be working on understanding how this organism [or symbiosis] works to better understand what I'm dealing with. If anyone already has tried this or understands the life cycle please point me in the right direction.
 
I have not had any scientific research over aspergillosis oryzae and its exact life cycle but let me give some hypotheses based off my experience.

First off it seems like the life cycle of the mold seems to be dependent on its environment. Spores seem to need a level of humidity and heat before they germinate. Dependent on the temperature during the molds main life it will produce either amylase A or B in higher amounts over the other. Then if the humidity drops then the mold goes into spore production. I have never tried propagating more mold from the lees of a finished product. But I have tried making a second sake using it just like the kome-koji but using a little more than I would normally and it works but with a much reduced conversion of rice to sugar. But the lees does work well as a yeast starter. So I do not think the mold lives in the alcohol/bellow 50*F envirent the sake goes through. But you would need to try and inoculate new rice with the lees and replicate the growing conditions again to be for sure.
 
I just finished my first batch of sake and have worked out the bugs in each step.

Thank-you Arpolis for your advice on growing my Koji (I didn't have enough air circulation for good growth). But the rest of the process worked very well.

I have another question for all you experienced sake makers out there...

I understand why we need to use home steamed rice for the koji rather than just buying rice from a sushi restaurant (the restaurant sushi rice is oversteamed and just turns to mush, so the koji doesnt have enough surface area and oxygen exposure to grow). Yes I tried it.

But when making the actual sake (the additions of koji/rce water stage), there is less requirement for air circulation and everything gets mushy and soupy / broken down anyway, so why is is important to use the dryier home steamed rice?

and does anybody have any interesting recipes for using up the rice/lees? seems a pity to just throw out useful (sake marinated) food.
 
Arpolis, great thread. I have been studying sake making on YouTube as well as a book I bought. I found a supplier for polished sake rice but the shipping cost is as much as the cost of the rice. So, being an avid homebrewer and DIY geek I've been trying to find info on how to build a rice polishing mill. I know the Twinbird is a good mill but takes 4 fills to process enough rice for one gallon of sake. I'm from the school of ' go big or go home' and would like a mill that can process enough to do a 5 gal batch. Do you know of any plans or drawing of the internal workings? I want to polish to 50% for premium grade.

I have read they use talc as a polishing agent and I was wondering if by using food grade diatomaceous earth for the first step and then finishing with talc for the final step if it would shorten the process. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
 
I just finished my first batch of sake and have worked out the bugs in each step.

Thank-you Arpolis for your advice on growing my Koji (I didn't have enough air circulation for good growth). But the rest of the process worked very well.

I have another question for all you experienced sake makers out there...

I understand why we need to use home steamed rice for the koji rather than just buying rice from a sushi restaurant (the restaurant sushi rice is oversteamed and just turns to mush, so the koji doesnt have enough surface area and oxygen exposure to grow). Yes I tried it.

But when making the actual sake (the additions of koji/rce water stage), there is less requirement for air circulation and everything gets mushy and soupy / broken down anyway, so why is is important to use the dryier home steamed rice?

and does anybody have any interesting recipes for using up the rice/lees? seems a pity to just throw out useful (sake marinated) food.
Off the top of my head how about some milk and honey for a probiotic breakfast. Also, add some to miso soup. Kuji fried rice with green onion and egg. I'm on a roll sushi roll that is.
 
Never tried the pilsner strain myself. It will not taste like any commercial sake I am sure but may still be interesting. Even though the #9 strain says 62 - 68 it will work into the mid to high 40*F range for short spells. I said Wyeast earlier but meant the white labs strains. #9 strain is a popular one to use with my method. I liked the 1116 yeast I used in this thread. It had this nice smooth floral and kinda fruity character that was nice. Your choice on the yeast. I am just curious.
A pilsner yeast will drop out at about 11% alcohol at best.
 
Hello, I know this thread had been almost 10 years old but still find it fascinating to understand the sake progress as im searching through the net for a proper guide on making a good Sake.
I'm from SouthEast Asia, particularly Malaysia. I'm wondering if there's anyone outside there from this region interested or had any experience in brewing sake at home ?

There are few challenges at my place to brew Sake.
1) The equipment are not easily obtainable.
2) the weather, temperature and humidity. (it's warm and humid all year round)
3) The yeast/ Kojukin.

So I'm hoping i could find some answer here
1) Does anyone has any experience or advice on making or DIY a cooling incubator or a way to keep the temperature low? also the humidity?

2) I found some seller on ebay selling Lalvin K1-V1116 so i will get them as recommended. Are yeast nutrient energizer essential?

I find video easier to understand. I find this video making koji rice quite useful

I hope i'm not posting this question at the wrong place and thank you for your answer and advice.
 
I purchased my yeast koji-kin and even rice (kokuho rose-Whole Foods) from amazon. You can use a small insulated cooler and a brew belt or seed mat for your incubator. Fortunately, I will use my kegerator for cooler. If you can find a cheap used mini fridge they have videos on YouTube on installing a thermostat. Good luck! Also thanks to Arpolis for the documentation. I have started my own batch of sake from my homemade kome-koji thanks to this thread.
 
I have found a few pieces of equipment
STC-1000 with my old fridge, and a heat source (brew belt or brew mat - cheaper option).

I found an ebay shop shipping Lalvin K1-V1116 and Japanese Koji Yeast Starter Chouhouku Kin from here (https://thejapanstore.jp/collection...ducts/koji-starter_001?variant=12993318322241)

Had anyone had any experience with using this? How was it compared to Lalvin V1116?
Is the brew belt or brew mat a better option ?
I read that brew mat could distribute heat more evenly than brew belt (which also has safety concern when not connected tightly). But they all has limited heating ability compared to ferm wrap.

Thankss
 
If you can use a small fridge as your incubator for koji and your cooling setup for fermentation would be convenient but I chose to use a small insulated cooler in order to get the most of my brew belt heat. I would imagine it would be tougher to maintain 90-95F and good humidity in a larger container with only a little heat mat or belt but you can always test these things before you begin. I found myself needing to stir and cool the koji down as it heats itself in the process. I’m learning lots on here and from hands on don’t be discouraged if it doesn’t work out but test what you can, do what you can, and have fun experimenting. I’m using the lalvin k1-v1116 for the first time myself because it was cheap and the OPs description sounded like it worked well with sake. I will try a wyeast sake #9 after this batch runs its course.
 
If you can use a small fridge as your incubator for koji and your cooling setup for fermentation would be convenient but I chose to use a small insulated cooler in order to get the most of my brew belt heat. I would imagine it would be tougher to maintain 90-95F and good humidity in a larger container with only a little heat mat or belt but you can always test these things before you begin. I found myself needing to stir and cool the koji down as it heats itself in the process. I’m learning lots on here and from hands on don’t be discouraged if it doesn’t work out but test what you can, do what you can, and have fun experimenting. I’m using the lalvin k1-v1116 for the first time myself because it was cheap and the OPs description sounded like it worked well with sake. I will try a wyeast sake #9 after this batch runs its course.

Thankss. I was concerned that such small devices (belt/ mat) could heat up the whole thing, but i guess i just have to give it a try until i find a better idea/ option.
 
I just discovered this thread, and about to make my third batch of sake. Unfortunately, it looks like @Arpolis and @aiptasia both no longer post.

Basic Brewing Radio just had an interview with Arkansas Origami Sake company, plus a much older interview with Bob Taylor (was this the poster @Arpolis) who goes deep into the actual making process.

For anyone that wants to try with real sake rice polished to 40-60% and I believe real koji sourced from a sake factory in Oregon, then try this FH Steinbart. (If any of the sake ingredients are listed as out of stock, email the help address and it just may be that the page was not yet updated). By the way, Fred Eckhart was a Portland based homebrew and sake pioneer.

Anyhoo, my third batch is going to be with the Steinbart sake kit and sake yeast #9. Batch #2 was with sake yeast #7 but unfortunately that turned into a clove bomb and I didn't save any of the yeast. It's a White Labs seasonal yeast, so out of stock until the fall. I'm sure one can use lalvin K1v-1116, but since the variables are water, rice, koji and yeast, I for one prefer to go with a traditional Japanese yeast.

I have never used the koji spores to make my own koji inoculated rice. My understanding though is that sake making aficionado's all make their own koji inoculated rice to control the process. Cold Mountain koji (inoculated rice) should be available in any Japanese market
 
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