1/4 brew volume for a starter?

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mandoman

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Really? Jamil and Palmer's book suggests a 9 L starter made from one vial of WL yeast for a 10 gallon batch. That's a 2.5 gallon starter for 10 gallons of beer. This is just one example that recurs a lot. In this case I'm calculating the best starter size for the american wheat recipe, which is 2 vials for 5 gallons (or 4 vials for 10 gallons) which, if you want to use 1 vial, translates to a 9 L starter. It's still cheaper than 4 vials (about $32) for 1 vial plus almost 2 lbs DME (about $8 for a total of $16). So, that's half the price. If I made half as big a starter (still better than 1 vial and about the same as 2 vials or $16) it would cost $8 for the vial and about $4 of DME or $12. I guess the way to do it would be to mash my own wort, make a 2.5 gallon batch of unhopped 1.040 wort, what is that, about 4 lbs of grain or $4 at bulk prices? Shoot, that's about the same as DME. I guess the way to do it is to brew a 2.5 gallon batch with one vial, then dump ten gallons onto that yeast cake. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. That's assuming one vial of WL is a good pitch rate for 2.5 gallons of beer, which seem to be ok for most ales. Of course, that's not building it up. Would it be necessary to make a small starter for that? Seems like the 2.5 batch of beer would be the starter in this case. The resulting yeast cake would then be the starter for the regular ten gallon batch i intended on doing. And in this case, I'm not dumping 2.5 gallons of DME beer out I'm drinking 2.5 gallons of good beer. Of course, gonna cost a bit more for malt and hops but.........

Is my logic flawed? Is this reasonable?
 
that's silly.
I do 1.5-2L starters for everything and call it a day. I did a few weeks ago a 1.070 IPA with a 2L starter from a Wyeast Ringwood ale that fermened out in 4days. I find no reason in doing gallons of starters.
 
I guess I'm playing devil's advocate in a way. I'm not sure what I think but IF it makes a difference, or better yet, if pitching big starters increases the chances of success (and decreases the likelihood of a problem) then why wouldn't you do it? Besides the hassle and cost, of course. Are you saying you disagree that homebrewers grossly underpitch or that it doesn't really matter? I lean toward the 'it doesn't really matter' side but I'm just asking the question as the advice is so widespread to pitch larger.
 
I agree with you that alot of JZ's starter volumes seem quite large. However, now that I've started making starters matching his recommended volumes, my beers seem to ferment more quickly, and don't seem to need as much time to clean up off flavors.
So, I seem to get less diacetyl and green flavors, and the beer seems better, sooner.

Regarding what to do with the large volume of starter, I see a few options:
1 - Pitch the entire starter. In this case, plan on fermenting the starter that same way you'd ferment the actual batch.
2 - Make the starter be a mini batch of beer, and pitch on the yeast cake.
3 - Make a regular batch of beer and pitch to all or part of the yeast cake.

I've done #1 once, with a starter of 1214. The starter tasted delicious, so I put the whole thing in and compensated for the extra DME. This has been my quickest ferment yet, going from 52 to 12 in 1.5 days.
I'm in process on using #3. I wanted to make a doppelbock, which JZ said would be a 20L starter for 1 pack. Since 20L = 5 gal, I made a Helles for the doppelbock's starter, and gave it a 1 gal starter.
I fermented the gallon starter at ale temps, and it makes and interesting flavor. My roommate likes it so he got it :mug:
 
I guess I'm playing devil's advocate in a way. I'm not sure what I think but IF it makes a difference, or better yet, if pitching big starters increases the chances of success (and decreases the likelihood of a problem) then why wouldn't you do it? Besides the hassle and cost, of course. Are you saying you disagree that homebrewers grossly underpitch or that it doesn't really matter? I lean toward the 'it doesn't really matter' side but I'm just asking the question as the advice is so widespread to pitch larger.

I think most people do underpitch but there is such a thing as overpitching especially with ales. Some strains do better at higher temp or when they struggle bit. Making a totally clean tasting ale doesn't always make the best tasting one. The biggest benefit for me by pitching 1-2qt starters is reduced lag time...I just think it's silly to have to make 2.5gallon starter, just pitch onto a cake or save slurry. Also if it aint broke don't fix it. If I make a great tasting beer using a 1qt starter the next time I make the same beer with the same yeast I'm not gonna make a 3qt starter when I know from experience it's not neccessary. On the other hand if I make beer that doesn't show signs of healthy fermentation and/or has too many esters, diacetyl, whatever I'm going to look into why.
 
I know from experience it's not neccessary

this is the part I'm talking about. How do we know we're not just getting lucky? I guess after you have good results 2 or 3 times in a row we assume it's because of A or B. I'm trying to maximize this equation and get closer to being able to assign causality between the result (good beer) and the cause (A or B). Don't get me wrong, I'm cool with the mystery but in my work I'm constantly having to be obsessed with getting closer to causality and I think it's just my nature. I know full well we can't really get there but we can get close. It's like measuring intelligence. For one thing, we can't really measure it, we can only estimate it. For the second thing, we'll never know what CAUSES one to be intelligent but we can come up with a suite of things RELATED to intelligence. Then we have to make a leap of faith that these things are actually related - that's really a personal choice. For example, home schooling or choosing the 'best' school for kids.
 
When I do lagers that call for starters of huge proportions compared to the batch size (ie, 2 gallon starter for 5 gallon batch), I'll brew a 2.5 gallon Mr. Beer batch, and then dump the yeast cake onto the lager wort.

It's more expensive than brewing a 2.5 gallon all-grain or extract + steeping brew, but you can get the Mr. Beer wort into the fermenter in about a half an hour, compared to several hours to many hours. And I make an appropriate starter for the 2.5 gallon Mr. Beer batch, if necessary.

Cost for starter is about $15-18 (Beer Mix, 2 gallons distilled water, 4-6 oz DME), compared about $6 (1.5 lbs DME).

It's definitely much more expensive with the Mr. Beer starter, but you get about another case of delicious homebrew, compared to just dumping 2 gallons of starter wort.

The biggest downside, apart from the additional cost, is you have to plan your Mr. Beer "starters" a couple of weeks in advance (depending on how long primary fermentation takes).
 
When I do lagers that call for starters of huge proportions compared to the batch size (ie, 2 gallon starter for 5 gallon batch), I'll brew a 2.5 gallon Mr. Beer batch, and then dump the yeast cake onto the lager wort.

It's more expensive than brewing a 2.5 gallon all-grain or extract + steeping brew, but you can get the Mr. Beer wort into the fermenter in about a half an hour, compared to several hours to many hours. And I make an appropriate starter for the 2.5 gallon Mr. Beer batch, if necessary.

Cost for starter is about $15-18 (Beer Mix, 2 gallons distilled water, 4-6 oz DME), compared about $6 (1.5 lbs DME).

It's definitely much more expensive with the Mr. Beer starter, but you get about another case of delicious homebrew, compared to just dumping 2 gallons of starter wort.

The biggest downside, apart from the additional cost, is you have to plan your Mr. Beer "starters" a couple of weeks in advance (depending on how long primary fermentation takes).

Man, that's a great idea! I like that a lot. Almost enough to buy a Mr. Beer kit once they start hitting Craigslist in Feb.

I rarely make starters, BTW. I use a lot of dry yeast, and I agree in general with the idea that some yeast strains need to go through the thorns to reach the heavens. Lagers are probably different, though... I'm going to start making a couple this winter.
 
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