Brandon O' Graff vs Graham's English Cider

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JonGoku

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I have been reading a lot on Ciders in this forum and besides the obvious fad of making Apfelwein there are two other recipes that stuck out as a potential winner of my next attempt at a cider. One was Graham's English Cider and the other was Brandon O's Graff. They are both slight variations on attempts to improve the Applejuice+sugar+yeast monster started by Mr. Ed, and I would like to hear from people who have done both and if they could give a comparison review.

Cheers!
 
Due to lack of responses I decided to brew 4 gallons of each. I guess I'll compare them myself in a few months.
 
I am curious to hear your results. I made a batch of Graff, and love the stuff, but I haven't tried Graham's English Cider
 
Well, I'll compare the Apfelwine too. In the pic below the Graff is on the left, and English Cider is on the right. Both are about 14 hours post pitching. The one in the middle is Apfelwine that is a month old. It has almost dropped clear. Oh, and behind the Graff is an Amarillo IPA I brewed yesterday too along with the Graff and EC.

29w8fhc.jpg


Picture quality is poor as my phone was the only camera I had on hand.

Cheers!
 
I would be interested in the results as well. I have brewed Graff and love it, but havent tried that other cider.
 
Life's been busy, but thankfully that helps time pass more quickly right? Anyways, here are a few picture updates. I'll see about doing some hydrometer test and tastings this weekend.

1/21/2010 (4 days after pitching)
The Graff on the left changed color (got murky?) due to yeast activity.
2qkl56o.jpg


2/9/2010 (19 days after pitching Graff & EC, 46 days for the Apfelwein)
Apfelwein is crystal clear
2m34g8g.jpg
 
Here's some individual shots a little more close up.

Graff (19 days)
sqh0zq.jpg


English Cider (19 days)
jtqond.jpg


Apfelwein (46 days)
i27d52.jpg
 
The Apfelwein tempted me last night and so I pulled a hydro sample.

The Apfelwein after 47 days from pitching tasted like a chardonnay with hints of apple. Actually quite good and better than I expected after reading some of the naysayers' posts here.

Apfelwein was:
OG 1.074
FG 1.001
ABV 9.61%

I used 5 gallons of Kirkland (Costco brand) not from concentrate apple juice + 2lbs dextrose w/ Lalvin KIV-1116 yeast (LHBS did not carry Red Star Montrachet per Mr. Ed's original recipe).
 
I used 5 gallons of Kirkland (Costco brand) not from concentrate apple juice + 2lbs dextrose w/ Lalvin KIV-1116 yeast (LHBS did not carry Red Star Montrachet per Mr. Ed's original recipe).

Did you use the same juice for all 3 batches? That kirkland juice was pretty good, but seemed to be all sweet with little character (compared to TT, Motts, etc), I ended up putting in my notes to add some more acid and tea next time I make my recipe, but that's my personal taste.
 
Did you use the same juice for all 3 batches? That kirkland juice was pretty good, but seemed to be all sweet with little character (compared to TT, Motts, etc), I ended up putting in my notes to add some more acid and tea next time I make my recipe, but that's my personal taste.

All three are from the same kirkland juice. It was "not from concentrate" and a few more bucks than the other brands, so I figured it had to be better, right? So what you are saying is that the from concentrate TT or Motts actually had a better flavor profile in the end product? Did you do the same recipe for all types of juices or did you change any other variables like yeast etc.

Oh, and what was the recipe you used?
 
All three are from the same kirkland juice. It was "not from concentrate" and a few more bucks than the other brands, so I figured it had to be better, right? So what you are saying is that the from concentrate TT or Motts actually had a better flavor profile in the end product? Did you do the same recipe for all types of juices or did you change any other variables like yeast etc.

Oh, and what was the recipe you used?

I've done Graham's English Cider (I'm Graham :p) 23 times so far, and I've used many juices and many yeasts. The batches I've done at the same time with Kirkland juice and other juices have been with WLP023 and s-04 right now. I've got another batch with kirkland and WLP037 going right now next to a batch with Albertson's Brand. concentrate is generally not a good thing, but really it depends on the variety of apples used in the juice. The Kirkland one seems to be very sugary and not too tannic/acid. IMHO
 
Thank you for pointing out Graham's English Cider's recipe, it got me so interested I made up 11 gallons on 20100127 using Walmart Tree Top juices. It was the only one they carried that did not have preservitives in it.
I did add a little more sugar (5 lbs) just to bump it up some so I can't say it is exactly to style.
I used S-04, and I was down to a SG of 1.010 four days ago.
I did like the idea of the tannins and lime juice to adjust the taste, hopefully I and my friends will really enjoy it.

On a little different topic, is it just me or when I pick up a bottle of "organic" juice, I don't expect to see preservatives in it. Everyone I looked at today had them in there.
 
I've done Graham's English Cider (I'm Graham :p) 23 times so far, and I've used many juices and many yeasts. The batches I've done at the same time with Kirkland juice and other juices have been with WLP023 and s-04 right now. I've got another batch with kirkland and WLP037 going right now next to a batch with Albertson's Brand. concentrate is generally not a good thing, but really it depends on the variety of apples used in the juice. The Kirkland one seems to be very sugary and not too tannic/acid. IMHO

DOH! Hey Graham, thank you very much for posting. It had been so long since I grabbed your recipe I'd forgotten your pen name and didn't realize who I was talking too. :drunk:

I'm wondering if you think it would be advisable to add in some more tannin/acid even at this stage or when I rack over to secondary, and if so how much? Should I be able to determine anything by taste testing now 20 days in? The batch was only started as a 4 gallon batch, but when I rack over to secondary I think I will top it off to 5. I used 4 tea bags and one regular lemon (from friends lemon tree). Also, if/when I top off I could use TT or Motts instead of Kirkland, if you think that would be better.

BTW nice pint glass, Go Arsenal!
 
DOH! Hey Graham, thank you very much for posting. It had been so long since I grabbed your recipe I'd forgotten your pen name and didn't realize who I was talking too. :drunk:

I'm wondering if you think it would be advisable to add in some more tannin/acid even at this stage or when I rack over to secondary, and if so how much? Should I be able to determine anything by taste testing now 20 days in? The batch was only started as a 4 gallon batch, but when I rack over to secondary I think I will top it off to 5. I used 4 tea bags and one regular lemon (from friends lemon tree). Also, if/when I top off I could use TT or Motts instead of Kirkland, if you think that would be better.

BTW nice pint glass, Go Arsenal!

when you top off, the kirkland will be fine, just make a mini-batch when you do, 1 tea bag, 1TBS lime juice. it should turn out fine. Nothing wrong with kirkland, just other ones have some more character, but it all comes down to preference, I love cider that's really tannic and acid.
 
when you top off, the kirkland will be fine, just make a mini-batch when you do, 1 tea bag, 1TBS lime juice. it should turn out fine. Nothing wrong with kirkland, just other ones have some more character, but it all comes down to preference, I love cider that's really tannic and acid.
Ok, thanks for the response. I think I will continue with the kirkland as well to keep the variables across types the same. For my second batch I'll go with something else.
 
Hey Guys, I need to update this thread but in truth nothing much has changed other than they have become clearer. I will try to post some pictures soon, and better yet actually get them kegged or bottled so we can do some taste testing.

Cheers!
 
I have a question - I'm new to this and my first cider is on the go, bubbling away in a 5 gallon glass jug like yours. When you do a Hydrometer reading, do you just siphon off just enough? Do you have to worry about oxygen getting to your cider? Do you then discard the sample?
 
I have a question - I'm new to this and my first cider is on the go, bubbling away in a 5 gallon glass jug like yours. When you do a Hydrometer reading, do you just siphon off just enough? Do you have to worry about oxygen getting to your cider? Do you then discard the sample?

I use a wine thief and try to get just enough for a hydrometer reading. Have a batch of Graff going right now and will have to check it in a day or two. Oh and I usually just drink the sample. :)
 
Jonathan sold his brew equipment and I picked up the 5 gallon fermenters. Three of them had these ciders, which have been bulk conditioning in secondary for almost 2 years. I drew samples from each and took gravity reading and tried them. I think I have the brews correct based on a tag on one, anf the color and taste of the others.

The Apfelwein - FG is 1.000, aroma is full of apples and clean, flavor is vinous and cleanly complex. Very dry. This is a good one. I'm not going to leave it still. No heat or booziness. I'll prime it with corn sugar and fresh yeast and bottle it in a week or so.

Graham's English Cider - FG is 1.004, lot's of apple in the aroma, low complexity, dry tart almost peppery. No heat or booziness. It needs help. I added Saigon Cinnamon (cassia), Szechuan peppercorn, and Chinese Liquorice root. I will prime with sugar and yeast in a few weeks and bottle. Hoping to increase the peppery complexity, add some glycerin sweetness and slippery body. Like a hint of Cinnamon candy apple soda and heat to go with tamales or chili.

Brandon O' Graff - FG is 1.008, interesting aroma and aroma with hints of both apple and barley, drinkable but a little unusual, slightly bitter, smooth back notes. No heat or booziness. Needs help. I added Ceylon (true) Cinnamon, Chinese dry Ginger Root, and Chinese Liquorice root. I will prime with sugar and yeast in a few weeks and bottle. Hoping to layer spice flavors over the smoothness and bring faint sweetness and depth to the mouthfeel.

We'll see how it goes. I'll be sure to share a few bottles of each with Jonathan if they improve as planned.
 
Jonathan sold his brew equipment and I picked up the 5 gallon fermenters. Three of them had these ciders, which have been bulk conditioning in secondary for almost 2 years. I drew samples from each and took gravity reading and tried them. I think I have the brews correct based on a tag on one, anf the color and taste of the others.

The Apfelwein - FG is 1.000, aroma is full of apples and clean, flavor is vinous and cleanly complex. Very dry. This is a good one. I'm not going to leave it still. No heat or booziness. I'll prime it with corn sugar and fresh yeast and bottle it in a week or so.

Graham's English Cider - FG is 1.004, lot's of apple in the aroma, low complexity, dry tart almost peppery. No heat or booziness. It needs help. I added Saigon Cinnamon (cassia), Szechuan peppercorn, and Chinese Liquorice root. I will prime with sugar and yeast in a few weeks and bottle. Hoping to increase the peppery complexity, add some glycerin sweetness and slippery body. Like a hint of Cinnamon candy apple soda and heat to go with tamales or chili.

Brandon O' Graff - FG is 1.008, interesting aroma and aroma with hints of both apple and barley, drinkable but a little unusual, slightly bitter, smooth back notes. No heat or booziness. Needs help. I added Ceylon (true) Cinnamon, Chinese dry Ginger Root, and Chinese Liquorice root. I will prime with sugar and yeast in a few weeks and bottle. Hoping to layer spice flavors over the smoothness and bring faint sweetness and depth to the mouthfeel.

We'll see how it goes. I'll be sure to share a few bottles of each with Jonathan if they improve as planned.

Daniel, that is so awesome! And thanks for putting some closure to this thread. No doubt 2 years might have been a bit much and may have given one of the ciders a leg up over the others, but I'm glad they all were still drinkable.

To those who might be curious, my brewing (cidering?) days took a hiatus as life and family and work took higher priority and put what brew time I had on hold. I'm sure one of these days I'll start brewing again, but space around my house being a premium forced me to sell or get rid of what wasn't in use. I'm very excited to hear my cider experiment is still alive and can't wait to get a taste sometime soon.

Like a true homebrewer, when Daniel came by to pick up what he wanted, including the ciders, he dropped off a bottle of his own homebrew. A very easy drinking amberish beer with a really nice coffee aroma and taste. IIRC it was a 90 shilling scotch ale. While I've had a number of stouts with coffee, chocolate, or similar types of taste I'd never had a lighter/amberisk beer with a coffee taste and it was actually very nice. A flavor balance that could get very addictive. Thanks a million!

Cheers!
 
Like a true homebrewer, when Daniel came by to pick up what he wanted, including the ciders, he dropped off a bottle of his own homebrew. A very easy drinking amberish beer with a really nice coffee aroma and taste. IIRC it was a 90 shilling scotch ale. While I've had a number of stouts with coffee, chocolate, or similar types of taste I'd never had a lighter/amberisk beer with a coffee taste and it was actually very nice. A flavor balance that could get very addictive. Thanks a million!

Cheers!
Glad you enjoyed it. It was the last one in the second of my "Rooster" series.
http://untappd.com/beer/85454
 
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