Water Chemistry for Portland, Oregon

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snowscaris

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Hello everyone!

This is my first post, though I have been reading the forums for a while now.
I have recently switched to all grain brewing. I've been trying to brew stouts and browns for my first few batches. All of my batches have an astringent off flavor that I am trying to identify. I replaced my stove with one capable of a full rolling boil without having to keep the lid half way on the pot... so no dms.
I recently listened to an interview with John Palmer from the basic brewing pod cast archives concerning water chemistry. John mentioned Portland as a region having Pilsen type soft water. He went on to comment that Portland's soft water could be problematic for brewing dark beers such as stouts, as the dark grains could drag the pH of the mash below optimum levels.
I am in the process of getting my water tested for specifics, and will be testing my current mash pH on my next brew day... But I was wondering if there are any other home brewers in the Portland area that may have run into this problem already, and would care to comment?

Thank you!
Snow
 
Welcome to the forum. Astringency is a result of phenolic compounds. These can come from a variety of sources including grain husks, hops, chlorine or iodine sanitizers, and yeast metabolism. Lower mash pHs do not contribute to increased phenolic compounds.

Make sure your sparge water isn't too hot (below 180°F) and that you have clear wort running into the kettle (no husks). Also, have a good rolling boil and hot break. This can help precipitate out phenols. And make sure your evaporation rate isn't too high (unlikely). If you use a chlorine sanitizer, rinse your sanitized equipment with pre-boiled water (or don't use a chlorine sanitizer). If you use iodine, use the correct concentration. Make sure your yeast pitch rate and fermentation temps are within the correct range and try to keep too much break material out of the fermenter.

It's doubtful your water or the use of dark grains is causing it. But if you do have naturally soft water (assuming your on a well?), it's definitely worth looking into your specific water profile. You likely need to add some minerals (e.g., calcium) to have better brewing water.
 
I brew using Portland OR tap water, and haven't had any issues with astringency. I also haven't done any stouts since moving to AG, and I don't do many browns either.
I suggest that you try a couple of lighter beers, to see if the issue shows up.
Also, you don't say how old the beers are, and I found that I got more off flavors from very young beers after switching to AG.
 
I have been using portland water with no issues so far. I tried 5.2 ph stabilizer to help efficiency but I haven't used it for every batch. So far haven't noticed any astringent flavors w/ 10 all grain batches.

FWIW Lucky lab uses the pdx tap water straight up, and the guys I have talked to at steinbart lhbs (about the 5.2) also use tap water w/ no ph adjust. I don't boil it or anything, just use it straight. I even used it straight cold when I was doing extract.

edit: whoa 200 posts
 
I also use water straight out of the tap and have had no issues. Most Portanders get their water from Bull Run reservoir or from Mt. Tabor, both of which are so naturally filtering the city barely treats it at all. Some people use well water which can attribute to astringency (I think Kilted_brewer has well water and said he may have those problems)

Let us know what the results of your water profile report is!
 
He went on to comment that Portland's soft water could be problematic for brewing dark beers such as stouts, as the dark

I know that the batch of Milk Stout I brewed while in Portland ( Oct. 2008) was incredible. I just used tap water. Growing up there, I never used any additives while brewing.

In California, I am using RO water and adding minerals to get decent beer.
The tap water in the area I live in is ok... but not really brew quality.
 
(I think Kilted_brewer has well water and said he may have those problems)

Master Evil is correct. I live in Milwaukie (SE Portland really....well...kinda) and am on well water. I have the opposite problem of the OP though. Darker brews are great with just tap water, I can't get the lighter styles to come out with out the tanniny, astringent flavors. I'm messing around with cutting it with RO water and just did a blonde over the weekend that I just used some gypsum and calcium chloride (per Palmer) to help get it to where I need for lighter ales.
 
For you guys using straight-up PDX tap water, are you running it through a filter at all? I've been using the water filter that comes with the OBC loaner system, but if I don't need it, that'd be one less thing for me to worry about.
 
I don't filter either. I probably should though, since my house was built in 1916, and could have lead pipes. I'm sur it's not duing anythng to affect my prain power thu. I do however let the water out of the tap for a little bit, since sometimes it looks a little rusty.


Hey kilted, did you try out that beer you made at the group brewmeet yet?
 
Here's some relevant info on PDX water from the Water Bureau's FAQ that might lead us all to change our ways ever so slightly, especially as regards filtering:
Is it safe to use tap water in my fish tank?

Water for aquariums should be dechlorinated. The Portland Water Bureau uses chlorine and ammonia to disinfect Portland's water in a process called chloramination. Disinfection is important so humans don't get waterborne diseases. Chloramines can be lethal to fish, however, so it's important to adequately dechlorinate water before it's added to an aquarium.

If you have copper plumbing, be sure to run the water to flush out water that has been sitting in contact with the piping. Copper can be toxic to fish. You can reduce copper in your water if you run the water for several minutes to flush your pipes.

I usually run my brew water through an on-tap Brita filter, but I'm planning on using a Campden tablet next time to remove the chloromine, which isn't removed by carbon filtration. I haven't noticed any specific off-tastes in my brew, but why take the risk?

One direction I haven't gone is to use pH stabilizer. Our water is indeed quite soft, but until I aim to reproduce a specific commercial brew/style, I just don't feel the need to add anything at this point for standard styles.
 
Hey kilted, did you try out that beer you made at the group brewmeet yet?

Just saw this Evil...I have tried the Cali Common, though probably not in the last 2 weeks or so. I'm quite happy with it. Still getting a little bit of the tannin flavors I was trying to avoid, but they are mellowed out compared to previous brews. Maybe a 60/40 split (RO/Tap) instead of 50/50 next time.
 
I'm in Oregon City and we have really soft water also. I haven't been filtering it, but will be starting with this next batch. Like one of the above replies I also have an old house so I'm more concerned about other crap in the water, but it will hopefully also remove any chlorine in the water as well.
 
Well I'm across the river in Beaverton and our water is real soft too.
I was thinking I might need to add something to the water, getting
a relatively low mash efficiency. Water specifics below in ppm:

Ca 9
Mg 3
HCO3 34
SO4 14
Na 12
Cl 5

Any thoughts?
 
Well I'm across the river in Beaverton and our water is real soft too.
I was thinking I might need to add something to the water, getting
a relatively low mash efficiency. Water specifics below in ppm:

Ca 9
Mg 3
HCO3 34
SO4 14
Na 12
Cl 5

Any thoughts?

You should increase your Ca with CaSO4 or CaCl2 to at least 50ppm for any beer. But I don't think that will have a significant impact on your efficiency. Your pH is probably not too high either, so I'd venture to say that the primary cause(s) of your inefficiency is unrelated to your water profile.
 
Since we're on the topic of Portland water, does anyone know how to tell when it switches from Bull Run only to Bull Run/Columbia wells mix?
I imagine the mineral profile changes at that time.

I've only been adding salts to beers to accentuate hoppiness. I brewed an IIPA this winter using tap only, and the bitterness was definitely softer than comparing with Pliny, even at 225 IBUs for mine. Since then, I've been adding 1/2-1 T of Burton salts to IPAs and PAs where I want the hops to stand out more, and it seems to make the bitter more assertive.
 
I agree, dont filter Portland water, we have some kickin water up here. It may be a little soft for a dark beer but wont take much away from its flavor. Maybe the best beer judges in the world could taste it, but I have had no problems with it. Gotta love our portland water!
 
Since we're on the topic of Portland water, does anyone know how to tell when it switches from Bull Run only to Bull Run/Columbia wells mix?
I imagine the mineral profile changes at that time.

Sorry to make another post, I actually just asked someone this. I was told that you can basically assume that sometime in June we tap into Columbia wells, but it is in such a low volume that our hardness doesnt really change. I would assume if you had issues with your hops, maybe for some reason the hops you used just didnt get the conversion that you needed. If you used hops that you have stored for a while, or purchased just before hop season, they will be lacking some alpha acids.
 
I usually run my brew water through an on-tap Brita filter, but I'm planning on using a Campden tablet next time to remove the chloromine, which isn't removed by carbon filtration. I haven't noticed any specific off-tastes in my brew, but why take the risk?

As it's news to me, anyone else have an opinion on chloramine in PDX water? I thought it could be removed with filtering? But definitely not boiling, which means all the brews I've made so far have been affected. Haven't noticed anything bad, but haven't made anything stellar yet either.
 
Just an FYI:

Portland, OR is listed as a city in beersmith and has a description "close to distilled water and good for Pilsners"

You probably have your lab results by now but thought I would throw this out there.
 
Just an FYI:

Portland, OR is listed as a city in beersmith and has a description "close to distilled water and good for Pilsners"

Holy crap, I didnt know this all the little things you find out about this program. That helps out a lot with calculating what needs to be added. Its really nice having a water source up here thats so low in everything, including chlorine, its easy to add carbonates and such to water, hard to remove. Thanks Humann!!!!
 
I am pretty sensitive to chlorine odor in water. I can't drink my Portland water straight up as the odor ruins it. I RO and add back some minerals and am very satisfied with the results. The fact is that I never trust a water report to be representative of what actually comes out of my tap. There are a lot of miles of pipes between my house and Bull Run, who knows what gets in.
 
The consensus on the Oregon Brew Crew discussion list recently is that in PDX due to chloramines, you need to use a campden tablet (potassium/sodium metabisulfate) to treat the tap water before brewing. 1/2 tablet will get 10 gallons done, and you should use the treated water for everything - the mash, any additional water added into the fermenter, and even to rinse after cleaning.

That's what I've been doing these past few batches. Again, why take the risk?
 
The consensus on the Oregon Brew Crew discussion list recently is that in PDX due to chloramines, you need to use a campden tablet (potassium/sodium metabisulfate) to treat the tap water before brewing. 1/2 tablet will get 10 gallons done, and you should use the treated water for everything - the mash, any additional water added into the fermenter, and even to rinse after cleaning.

That's what I've been doing these past few batches. Again, why take the risk?

What is the risk to a homebrewer?
If you are samc, and can't stand the chlorine odor in the water, sure, do the needful. I don't notice the chlorine in my tap water, and am quite happy with my beer.
Treating my pdx cleanup water? That just seems silly. Of course, do whatever you like. It's your beer.
 
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