American Pale Ale Three Floyds Zombie Dust Clone

dhaverstick said:

Should I still steep the carafoam, crystal, and melanoidin for 45-60 minutes our go with the standard 30 minutes for steeping?

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30 minutes should be plenty! You're not mashing, just steeping.

AOD said:

30 minutes should be plenty! You're not mashing, just steeping.

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Yeah, as long as you are doing a steep rather than a mash (meaning you're also replacing the Munich with more extract and are only using the steepable specialty grains) then just use your normal steeping process.

skeezerpleezer said:

Any reason for 140? I usually see 170-180, which is what I use.

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Yeah. I been following a thread called
How to get the best flavor and aroma from hop additions. Sorry on iPhone app and dunno how to add a link.
Also been reading the love for hops and listening to some brewing and "hop chemistry expert" from Wisconsin talk about flash points and oil boil off temps etc.
check it out.

fosaisu said:

I made this Monday (5.5 gallons, not 20!) as my first PM. PM is really simple, nothing to be intimidated by so if you have an extra hour on brew day I'd say go for it! Everything you need to know is in the first few posts of this excellent thread on PMing.

Since I've got all of one PM under my belt I'm no expert, but using half of your water for the mash sounds like too much. I've read that people generally do the mash with 1-2 quarts of water per pound of grain (I went with 1.25 qts/lb which seems to be a popular and safe ratio to use).

So to do your 20 gallon batch I think you'd want to mash:
4 lb Munich Malt
2 lb Carafoam
2 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt
2 lb Melanoiden Malt
*Consider adding several pounds of 2 Row, which is evidently supposed to help the specialty grains convert properly in the mash (reduce the DME accordingly, subtracting ~ .6lb DME for every pound of 2 Row)

If you used the 10 lbs specialy grains plus 4 lbs 2 Row, and went with 1.25 qts/lb, you'd want to sparge in 17.5 qts (4.375 gallons) of water. This website has a calculator the tells you roughly what to heat the mash water to so that it will drop to your desired mash temp once you add your grains. I mashed at 152 F for 1 hour, and things seem to have worked out fine.

There are various techniques for "sparging" (rinsing to extract residual sugars) the grains once the mash is complete. For simplicity's sake I just heated the remainder of my boil water up to 160 F (some people do 170 F) and tea bagged/steeped the grains in there for 10 more mins, then tossed them out, added the mash water to my boil water, and proceeded as I would with a normal extract brew.

Good luck with your brew however you decide to attack it, and I'm very impressed that you're doing 20 gallons!

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What do you think about subbing Munich LME for the Munich grains and Belgium biscuit for the melanoidin? Both the Munich and melanoidin grains are recommended for mashing only.

It's raining zombies!!!


At least it waited until I was almost finished before letting loose. Had to cover a bit here and there in last fifteen minutes. Of course I covered for hop stand I added as well. 4oz Citra for thirty minutes after chilling to 140°F

TD

dhaverstick said:

What do you think about subbing Munich LME for the Munich grains and Belgium biscuit for the melanoidin? Both the Munich and melanoidin grains are recommended for mashing only.

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Sorry, I haven't experimented much with "steepable" substitutions so not sure if Belgium biscuit is a good (and steepable) substitute for melanoidin. One thing to consider about Munich LME - if it's like Wheat LME it may not be 100% Munich (Briess Wheat extract is 65/35 wheat/barley). The Munich LME that Midwest sells, for instance, evidently contains only 50% Munich malt, with the other 50% being "base malt" which I assume would be similar to light or golden LME.

When I've converted all-grain wheat recipes to extract I've adjusted the amount of wheat extract up to account for the fact that every pound of wheat LME contains only .65 pounds of wheat. The math is a little tricky but here's how I did it, assuming conversion of a recipe calling for 1 lb wheat and 1 lb 2-row barley:

• If they made pure, 100% wheat LME I would need .75 lbs of it (using a standard conversion factor of 1 lb grain = .75 lb LME = .6 lb DME). Likewise for the 2-row barley I would need .75 lbs of LME (extra-light, light or golden LME probably aren't pure 2-row barley but there's nothing us extract brewers can do about that!).
• I would start by adding 1.2 lb wheat LME, which will contribute .75 lb pure wheat (1.2 lb x .65 wheat content) and .4 lb barley (1.2 lb x .35 barley content).
• I would then add an additional .35 lb light LME (I have .4 lb barley coming from the wheat LME, so this brings it up to the .75 lb barley total that I want).

Of course it might not be worth the hassle of doing these calculations given the relatively small amount of Munich in this recipe, but it should get you closer to the "real thing" than just using the Munich LME as if it were 100% Munich content.

[NOTE: I don't know that many folks use this approach in converting all-grain recipes to extract -- if you look at the typical extract versions provided alongside all grain recipes (like in Zymergy magazine), they seem to typically just translate wheat grain over to wheat LME using a .75 or similar conversion factor without considering the makeup of the LME. This may be lack of concern with the precision of the extract version, a desire to avoid freaking out rookie extract brewers with extra math, or maybe there's a good reason for not considering the extract makeup that I haven't though of!]

Can u not get hold of melanoidin? If not I'd use a light crystal 30-40L as biscuit needs to be mashed and you'd not get much out of it.
Munich lme is probably fine. I'd recommend mashing that though cos there's not a lot of the malt and if your intent on using biscuit it'll help with some conversion etc.
diastatic power required to convert and Munich has it not huge amounts but it'll be able to get some of that biscuitiness

Supposedly Aromatic is a sub or Melanoiden. I would not sub a crystal for it.

skeezerpleezer said:

Supposedly Aromatic is a sub or Melanoiden. I would not sub a crystal for it.

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thats not what beersmith says? says crystal 20L.
Aromatic will work too probably

Duplicate post

crusader1612 said:

thats not what beersmith says? says crystal 20L.
Aromatic will work too probably

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I Still wouldn't use a crystal malt in place of a non crystal malt. Unless you want more residual sugars and thus a sweeter beer. Also, you recommended 30-40 earlier, not 20.

If you can steep, you can probably mash. If so, I have read melanoiden is like "super Munich", so may be able to use some extra Munich.

Also.... why mash Munich extract? The mashing is done already.

skeezerpleezer said:

Also.... why mash Munich extract? The mashing is done already.

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I was a little confused reading that too but I'm guessing he meant "mash the Munich grain instead of using Munich extract", not "do a mash using specialty grains and Munich extract".

fosaisu said:

I was a little confused reading that too but I'm guessing he meant "mash the Munich grain instead of using Munich extract", not "do a mash using specialty grains and Munich extract".

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correct, i meant grain not extract. i knew on beersmith the sub showed as a crystal malt, the melanoidin here in nz is darker at 35L, rather than what seems to be available in the US. so im working on what colourings are available here.

Not trying to step on toes, I'm just offering my opinion. so apologies if i did

crusader1612 said:

correct, i meant grain not extract. i knew on beersmith the sub showed as a crystal malt, the melanoidin here in nz is darker at 35L, rather than what seems to be available in the US. so im working on what colourings are available here.

Not trying to step on toes, I'm just offering my opinion. so apologies if i did

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No offense here, just sharing my opinion on whether or not to add more crystal. I am not one to mind going over 10% for some beers, but don't think I would add much more to this. This chart says Amber may work well also, but I have never used it http://www.brewstock.com/brewstockbrewing.html

skeezerpleezer said:

No offense here, just sharing my opinion on whether or not to add more crystal. I am not one to mind going over 10% for some beers, but don't think I would add much more to this. This chart says Amber may work well also, but I have never used it http://www.brewstock.com/brewstockbrewing.html

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Nice chart. Looks ok to me never used amber either

So this is next up for me but I have a quick question. My LHBS doesn't carry carafoam, could I sub carapils? Any suggestions or advice?

i think its the same thing? so yes?

That was what I thought I had read just wanted to double check. Thanks!

When is the best time to add the dry hops? I think I'm sick of trying to do it in the keg. I was reading that the pros add their dry hops near the end of primary fermentation, when there is still active yeast some fermentables. The reasoning I hear is because whenever you add hops to beer, that some oxygen will be added as well. I have never personally done this, probably because brewing is a hobby, and by the time primary fermentation is complete (3-4 days usually) I've forgotten about the brew I made last weekend, and won't think about doing anything with it until the following weekend. However, in the quest for better beer, I am wondering if there is a recommended time to add the dry hops for this beer. I also understand that the flavor impact can be different depending on what effect the yeast has upon the hop compounds.

By the way, how do I put a list of beers in my sig like Crusader above, and others do?

TD

TrickyDick said:

When is the best time to add the dry hops? I think I'm sick of trying to do it in the keg. I was reading that the pros add their dry hops near the end of primary fermentation, when there is still active yeast some fermentables. The reasoning I hear is because whenever you add hops to beer, that some oxygen will be added as well. I have never personally done this, probably because brewing is a hobby, and by the time primary fermentation is complete (3-4 days usually) I've forgotten about the brew I made last weekend, and won't think about doing anything with it until the following weekend. However, in the quest for better beer, I am wondering if there is a recommended time to add the dry hops for this beer. I also understand that the flavor impact can be different depending on what effect the yeast has upon the hop compounds.

By the way, how do I put a list of beers in my sig like Crusader above, and others do?TD

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Chuck them in the primary 5-6days before bottling, thats what i do.
go to top right corner and click "my account" then go to edit signature, and bobs your uncle.

Will be making this Friday evening. Have never used this much hops. Looking forward to the smell and eventually the taste.

krduckman said:

Will be making this Friday evening. Have never used this much hops. Looking forward to the smell and eventually the taste.

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It is quite a load of (premium) hops! Fun to see them all sitting there before the boil.

I dry hop about 7 days into the process, usually the main fermentation is completed, so you won't lose a lot of aroma due to blow off of CO2. I dry hop directly into the primary fermenter, in a sanitized muslin bag.

Depending on the fermentation temp with this yeast (London ESB), I like to give it at least 2 weeks to clean up. That means 7-10 days of dry hop on average, which works well for me.

Cheers,
~Adam

TrickyDick said:

When is the best time to add the dry hops? I think I'm sick of trying to do it in the keg. I was reading that the pros add their dry hops near the end of primary fermentation, when there is still active yeast some fermentables. The reasoning I hear is because whenever you add hops to beer, that some oxygen will be added as well. I have never personally done this, probably because brewing is a hobby, and by the time primary fermentation is complete (3-4 days usually) I've forgotten about the brew I made last weekend, and won't think about doing anything with it until the following weekend. However, in the quest for better beer, I am wondering if there is a recommended time to add the dry hops for this beer. I also understand that the flavor impact can be different depending on what effect the yeast has upon the hop compounds.

By the way, how do I put a list of beers in my sig like Crusader above, and others do?

TD

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I really like how my batch turned out - the aroma is unreal. I did a 30 minute hopstand and I added dry hops to the primary when the fermentation was pretty much done - in this case it was 6 days from pitching (typically it's day 4-5 with WLP002 for me - cold basement) - the gravity was 1.020. I cold crashed after 6 days of dry hopping and kegged 3 days later. Typically with one dose I would only dry hop for about 3 days before cold crashing but it looked like there was a little more fermentation going on so I opted to let this stay warm for the extra couple of days - it ended up at 1.018.

Ever since I tried dry hopping in the primary I have written off ever dry hopping in a keg again. I think using loose pellets is the way to go - sometimes I'll rack to secondary for a multi-stage dry hopping, but almost always start dry hopping in the primary fermenter. A 3 day cold crash has always been sufficient to drop the pellets and transfer clear wort to the keg.

AnchorBock said:

I really like how my batch turned out - the aroma is unreal. I did a 30 minute hopstand and I added dry hops to the primary when the fermentation was pretty much done - in this case it was 6 days from pitching (typically it's day 4-5 with WLP002 for me - cold basement) - the gravity was 1.020. I cold crashed after 6 days of dry hopping and kegged 3 days later. Typically with one dose I would only dry hop for about 3 days before cold crashing but it looked like there was a little more fermentation going on so I opted to let this stay warm for the extra couple of days - it ended up at 1.018.

Ever since I tried dry hopping in the primary I have written off ever dry hopping in a keg again. I think using loose pellets is the way to go - sometimes I'll rack to secondary for a multi-stage dry hopping, but almost always start dry hopping in the primary fermenter. A 3 day cold crash has always been sufficient to drop the pellets and transfer clear wort to the keg.

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Good info!

I previously always did keg dry hopping. I agree that primary and secondary dry hopping is beneficial and with less potential problems that dry hopping in keg adds.

I'm on day 2 of fermentation and is going rather strongly. I slightly under pitched as I had one less yeast pack than I thought. I think it'll go we'll though. I rehydrated in a weak DME solution until I saw a few bubbles then pitched into chilled wort. Started fermenting in less than 12 hours, maybe sooner. Dunno.

TD

I did the recipe on the first page 2 weeks ago.
Just added my dry hops for this recipe. Didnt have my other 1lb bag of Citra hops so I had to improvise. Did 1oz each of Citra, Mosaic, and Amarillo.
2 weeks in primary, got down to 1.010 exactly. Dry hopping for 5 days, then cold crash for 2-3, rack into another bucket for bottling. Can't wait! The hydro sample tasted great, pretty much tasted how I remember Zombie Dust tasting on draft a couple weeks ago.

Brewed today - very close to page 1 recipe...I did BIAB and changed the hops additions slightly just to make it a bit simpler

Forgot my yeast nutrient as I was adding so many hops there at the end

LOVE the smell.

I'm looking to brew the extract version of this. I'm ordering most of the ingredients from MoreBeer. They only have Light DME or I could go with 7lbs of Ultralight LME. Which would yield a better beer? I substituted the 7lbs Extra Light LME in Brewersfriend and got:
OG: 1.064
FG: 1.018
IBU: 69.27
SRM: 9.20

I guess I'm just not too sure what the difference is between Ultralight and Extra light and if it would just be okay to use a Light DME.This is also for a 6 gallon boil.
Thanks!

Brewing this tomorrow for my first batch in months! Hell yeah!

the-crowing said:

I'm looking to brew the extract version of this. I'm ordering most of the ingredients from MoreBeer. They only have Light DME or I could go with 7lbs of Ultralight LME. Which would yield a better beer? I substituted the 7lbs Extra Light LME in Brewersfriend and got:
OG: 1.064
FG: 1.018
IBU: 69.27
SRM: 9.20

I guess I'm just not too sure what the difference is between Ultralight and Extra light and if it would just be okay to use a Light DME.This is also for a 6 gallon boil.
Thanks!

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I would sub in 0.5 to 0.75 lbs of corn sugar in place of some extract. This will help dry the beer out some.

If you're doing extract only, no grains, use the Light DME, not ultralight.

~Adam

AOD said:

I would sub in 0.5 to 0.75 lbs of corn sugar in place of some extract. This will help dry the beer out some.

If you're doing extract only, no grains, use the Light DME, not ultralight.

~Adam

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So if I PM, should I still just use Light DME with some corn sugar?

the-crowing said:

So if I PM, should I still just use Light DME with some corn sugar?

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Light vs extra light DME should only really impact the color of the beer not the flavor. I think his point was that if you were omitting the specialty/PM grains entirely you'd end up with an very light looking beer if you used extra light DME. Of course if you modified the recipe like that it would also taste different (and presumably worse, or at the least less interesting) than if you followed the PM recipe!

As for the corn sugar that makes sense to add if you are concerned about hitting the target FG, though if you generally hit your targets it might give you a higher ABV than the recipe suggests. I'm in the midst of making my first PM batch now (without a corn sugar substitution) so can't say if I'll hit the target FG or not.

The reason I suggest the corn sugar is because you cannot control the mash temperature of malt extract, so you cannot control the fermentability. It's fairly well agreed most malt extract is mashed mid-range temperature, so it ferments good, but not as dry as grains mashed in the low temp ranges 145-150F.

So I suggest to most folks who want crisp or non-malt focused beers when using extract, to replace some with corn sugar.

If you can PM at low temps, you might get by without the corn sugar.

Cheers,
~Adam

I made the all grain recipe posted on page 1 but scaled it down to 5.2 gallons. I chose to use WLP007 (English Ale Yeast), since White Labs is close by (joy of living in San Diego ). I mashed at 152 F. My OG was at 1.073. I left it in the primary for two weeks and then transferred to secondary for dry hopping. FG was 1.018 which calculates to 7.3% ABV. I dry hopped for 7 days then kegged it . It has been two weeks in the keg so I decided to try a sample. Like others mentioned, this is by far one of the top recipes out here. The Citra hops give it that tropical flavor with a hint of bitterness on the back end. I am not sure if it is fully conditioned, but it already tastes awesome. I think it still has potential to get better at week 3-4 but it is already very drinkable. Just in case the hop flavor fades away down the road I have an extra ounce that I can throw in the keg; I foresee a short road for this one...

I haven't had the original Zombie Dust so I can't compare but regardless this a damn good tasting beer and one of the best I made so far.

Finally got a chance to try this last night. I followed the original recipe pretty close, but ended up with a higher efficiency than I had been getting. Taste is amazing! I'm still new at homebrewing, and it this definitely my best batch to date! Thanks for the recipe, it will have to turn into a house regular.

I am fortunate enough to live close enough to 3F to have Zombie Dust - 3 bottles in my cellar right now. Side by side this is very close. Mine didn't turn out having quite as much of a hop bomb in your face, but I'm sure that is due to my error more than anything. Ended up with same flavors, same smells, just a little subtle than the original.

Cheers!
Roger

This is going to be my first kegged beer. Normally I dry hop in secondary, but I am not sure how I should dry hop this one.

Should I dry hop it in secondary, in the keg, or split the 3 oz amomg both?

Fordzilla said:

This is going to be my first kegged beer. Normally I dry hop in secondary, but I am not sure how I should dry hop this one.

Should I dry hop it in secondary, in the keg, or split the 3 oz amomg both?

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I have dry hopped in the secondary, and in the primary and in the keg. Keg dry hopping will give you most problems: hop particles clogging dip tube and poppet valves for instance, plus inability to remove the bag if you so desire, plus takes longer to achieve effect if keg is being chilled and carbonated. That said, I've done it many times without issue (until now- totally plugged dip tube). You can dry hop in the primary after day 4 usually the fermentation is nearly complete at most ale temps if properly aerated and pitched. Or you can rack to secondary onto the dry hops. Pros do dry hopping before they reach their FG by a few points to have the still active yeast scrub off the oxygen that is introduced along with the hop matter. This time I took a lesson from the pros and dry hopped in the primary. I brewed this last week Tuesday, and dry hopped on Tuesday (was out of town or would've done sooner), and also dry hopped a stone AB clone attempt, which was on day 5 after pitching. Both still in primary. This Sunday, ill rack them to the secondary, giving 5 days of room temp dry hopping effect for both. I have HopRocket and some cone hops that I might use as a randalizer when I dispense.

Supposedly, some folks can tell a difference if the dry hop character based on if the yeast is still active vs if it is not, because the yeast can metabolize some of the hop oils. Read this in love of hops book. If it was me, and it was my first kegged beer, I would dry hop in the secondary unless I had a particle screen filter on the dip tube, though these seem to coarse to filter out all the hop material.

By the way, poppet valves can leak. I recommend that if this is a first time kegging, that you be sure that there is a beer connection to the beer post hooked to whatever you are dispensing (faucet, cobra tap, etc), Unless you are absolutely sure that your poppet isnt leaky. There are threads where guys have thrown their keg into the serving fridge and hooked up the gas and return the next day to find all their beer had leaked out of the poppet valve overnight.

TD

Dry hop in the primary...

TrickyDick - Great post.
Do you like to use a hopsack or loose to dryhop in primary?

I dry-hopped mine in the keg. Not saying that issues can't arise when doing so, but I didn't have any. The beer was unbelievably fresh tasting and the aroma was nuts. So delicious, just wish it would've lasted longer. I plan on doing everything the exact same way when I make this again. Just my 2 cents.