Questions about March Pumps answered by the Factory!

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WalterAtMarchPump

WalterAtMarchPump

Well-Known Member
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Glenview
Greetings from March Pumps! My name is Walter and I am one of the engineers here, and I will gladly answer any questions you may have on our products. You can post them here and I will reply for all to see. Or you can PM me. Or you can call the factory direct and ask for either Hans or Walter in engineering. (800)323-0791
:D
Happy Brewing

-Walter
 
Since you are in Glenview and I am in Wheeling, what kind of local discounts can I get and how much home brew is required to get a "freebee!" :p

On a more serious note, since most of the pumps are not rated for boiling temps, what is the limitation in the rating system? Is it simply a certification issue that costs money to certify them for boiling temps or is there inherent danger in using standard brewing march pumps at boiling temps due to materials used? Or is it some other mechanical issue?

Cheers!
 
Randar said:
Since you are in Glenview and I am in Wheeling, what kind of local discounts can I get and how much home brew is required to get a "freebee!" :p

On a more serious note, since most of the pumps are not rated for boiling temps, what is the limitation in the rating system? Is it simply a certification issue that costs money to certify them for boiling temps or is there inherent danger in using standard brewing march pumps at boiling temps due to materials used? Or is it some other mechanical issue?

Cheers!
Click to expand...

The 809 is rated for liquid temps of 250*F well above the boiling point of 212*F
Certification of anything depending on what you want to do with it. To get NSF rating for instance we would need to nail the pump down for one application. If we wanted it to be used for beer transfer, it can be done.....problem comes into play when anything besides beer is put through the pump later. If for instance you cleaned it out with some sort of alcohol base disinfectant then the rating would be null/void. Most time's the company requesting the ratings will be putting together a complete unit or system that includes our pump in the assembly. That entire unit goes through the NSF certification process and is nailed down for one application and that would include anything involved with that process. Our pumps are used in so many applications it would be crazy expensive to get certifications for all possible scenarios. Just to give you a few examples, these 809's are used in transfer of hot vegetable oil, radiant flooring systems with glycol mixtures, hot water recirc for homes, solar hot water systems, there's a MAJOR electronics company that uses these in their chiller systems for computer cooling, there's a few automotive company's playing with these for possible electric car applications. Granted not all the examples I gave are food related but it just goes to show you that they are used in a variety of applications!

As for the second part of your question: "Is it simply a certification issue that costs money to certify them for boiling temps or is there inherent danger in using standard brewing march pumps at boiling temps due to materials used? Or is it some other mechanical issue?"

There's actually a few different reasons...and its not really a certification thing as much as its a magnetism/mechanical issue. The plastic pumps are only rated to withstand 50psi of internal pressure. In beer brewing you will never see that because you are not running a closed loop system that can build up pressure. Also with mag-drive pumps, the weak point will always be the mag-drive itself. On these 809's for instance we will start to loose magnetism in the magnets around 250*F.....each time you overheat the magnets you will loose about 10% of the magnetic strength....do it enough times and you will ruin the magnets all together. You can get stronger magnets like neodymium but then the costs go up with that and most people don't require temps above 250*F. We do have a cast iron pump (our 869) that can take 350*F liquid temps...but its running at a slow speed and has slightly stronger magnets. And we have done some "government" projects in the past with some of our bigger pumps that have withstood temps of 500*F and pressures of 1000psi! :eek: But that was with a "moneys no object" budget :D


-Walter
 
I'll be interested in what you find after examining you 'competitor's' product. While making beer at home doesn't require precision instruments, attention to detail does say something about the process. Can't drill a hole fairly close to center on a casting or just don't care to? Need to get a part later? Chinese factories are notorious for only wanting to do large runs. The factory making pumps today may be making dolls tomorrow.
 
Does March make any type of affordable self-priming, variable speed pump that can be used for homebrewing?
 
Huh, never would have thought the temperature rating was related to the magnets; assumed it was related to the material used in the pump head. Thanks for the info!
 
Walter, I have an 809 that seemed to lock up on me (temporarily). I turned it off and loosened it from it's mount, put it all back together and now it is fine. This got me thinking about routine maintenance. Can you tell us what type of routine maintenance/interval should be done to these pumps?

Thanks!
 
Great to see March here on the boards. I have 4 809 pumps and generally, they work great. The priming issue can be a challenge at times but over time, I have become more adept and dealing with my system and priming issues.

What's the story with the Morebeer March pump I saw an ad for recently? They claimed faster pumping speeds with a few minor tweaks. Does this pump prime more easily than the current pumphead? Can you make suggestions as to reducing cavitation and getting things to flow a bit more easily?

Also, how about a part number for a stainless head with opposing 1/2 MNPT threads to replace the polysulfone ones I currently use? I have a great March dealer in Albuquerque I deal with and can order through them. Thanks Walter. Appreciate the homebrew love.
 
Sawdustguy said:
+1 Is there a reason why nobody makes an affordable self priming magnetic drive pump?
Click to expand...

I don't know if I would want a self priming mag drive pump, reason being all mag drives I have seen are centrifugal pumps and all centrifugal self priming pumps I have seen have a "sump" to keep the pump head full of product when it stops so that next time this water can be used in the pumps special casing design to draw more product up the suction. This will mean that you would need to leave some water or something sitting in the pump between brew days (or prime on brewday). I don't have a pump (march or other) myself but work with them in my day job. But as far as I know you should not have issues with pumps "losing" prime if you have everything set up right. I have seen a lot of pumps set up with the outlet pointing vertical (so the actual outlet port is at 9 o'clock) this would be the main issue as it would not let the pump be fully flooded and a air pocket will sit at the top of the pump casing.
 
mattd2 said:
I don't know if I would want a self priming mag drive pump, reason being all mag drives I have seen are centrifugal pumps and all centrifugal self priming pumps I have seen have a "sump" to keep the pump head full of product when it stops so that next time this water can be used in the pumps special casing design to draw more product up the suction. This will mean that you would need to leave some water or something sitting in the pump between brew days (or prime on brewday). I don't have a pump (march or other) myself but work with them in my day job. But as far as I know you should not have issues with pumps "losing" prime if you have everything set up right. I have seen a lot of pumps set up with the outlet pointing vertical (so the actual outlet port is at 9 o'clock) this would be the main issue as it would not let the pump be fully flooded and a air pocket will sit at the top of the pump casing.
Click to expand...

I understand that. If your system is flushed properly before and after each brew, which I do anyway, I don't see why that would be a problem.
 
Hermit said:
I'll be interested in what you find after examining you 'competitor's' product. While making beer at home doesn't require precision instruments, attention to detail does say something about the process. Can't drill a hole fairly close to center on a casting or just don't care to? Need to get a part later? Chinese factories are notorious for only wanting to do large runs. The factory making pumps today may be making dolls tomorrow.
Click to expand...

Thats true...and what would worry me more is all the lead laced stuff taht also comes out of China! Just the other day my wife and i were in our local ACE hardware...they had the nice little 4' x-mass tree's that were pre-lit. unpon closer inspection of the box it clearly stated a lead warning that some electical parts may contain lead :(
 
halucin8 said:
Does March make any type of affordable self-priming, variable speed pump that can be used for homebrewing?
Click to expand...

We do not unfortunately....if you want variable speed I have seen some people use dimmer switches inline in the power cords of the pumps to slow them down....not sure if that works exactly. I have also seen some people use the variable speed controllers for power tools....but if you were to go that route then just make sure its PWM (Pulse width modulation) type. That kind of speed control switches the power on and off at different frequencies but still supplies the full voltage the motor needs. The easiest (and cheapest) thing you can do to vary the flow is just install a ball valve on the discharge of the pump and choke it down to what ever you want the pump to do.
As for self priming, the issue with a true self priming pump is that it must create a suction to draw the fluid in. No centrifugal pump will do that because the impeller veins do not contact the walls of the pump housing. There are some shaft drive type centrifugal pumps that have tighter machining internally that MAY have a slight sucking ability but still wont draw fluid up and into themselves. The only way to make one of ours into a self primer is to attach some sort of priming chamber to it. We make the 750 priming reservoir that holds about 1gal of liquid. Once you fill the chamber up it will be able to draw liquid through 10' of 1" line either horizontal or vertical.
http://www.marchpump.com/documents/series_prime.htm

-Walter
 
the_bird said:
Huh, never would have thought the temperature rating was related to the magnets; assumed it was related to the material used in the pump head. Thanks for the info!
Click to expand...

Its both, plastic has a melting point and magnets have a threshold they can opperate in...exceed either one and you have problems! :D

-Walter
 
nicadrick said:
Walter, I have an 809 that seemed to lock up on me (temporarily). I turned it off and loosened it from it's mount, put it all back together and now it is fine. This got me thinking about routine maintenance. Can you tell us what type of routine maintenance/interval should be done to these pumps?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

More then likely what's happening with yours is that you are getting a sugar buildup on the shaft the impeller spins on. Easiest thing you can do is take the pump apart and pass a 17/64 drill bit through the center of the impeller. Or if you happen to have a better drill index available then use a "G" drill bit.

Either you are not cleaning the pump out with clean hot water long enough or your pump may be on the tight side of tolerances when it comes to the impeller and shaft. Just as any other part made in the world they all have minimums and maximums during production. In the case of the impeller the bore hole should be between .253-.255 ID and the shaft should be .250 +/- .001 OD Now we cant check every single piece that comes off the production line so there may be parts that exceed the tolerances and you may get an impeller that's on the tight side and a shaft that's on the big side. They will work just fine but when you start pumping something thicker then water like an alcohol that has sugars in it, then you could run into situations where there is not enough lubrication between the shaft and impeller and it will literally cook the material between the two and seize up the impeller onto the shaft. By drilling out the impeller bore you give it an extra ..10 clearance that wont harm anything on the pump and will help keep things clean and clear inside the pump.

As for any other routine maint for the pump, the only thing you may or may not need to do is drop a few drops of light weight machine oil into the motor on the end caps. The white label on the motor has "oil" written on it with two arrows pointing to the outside edges. You will find a small hole and what looks like a tube/shaft inside the hole. That channel leads down tot he bearing caps where there is some wicking material soaked in oil for the sleeve bearings. Once a year is plenty as the motor mfg has told us that unless these are being used in a dirty/dusty/or very hot environment, the bearings are normally good, as is, for the life of the motor for most normal operations. I have mentioned to our marketing manager that we should do some YouTube videos showing some basic things like oiling or internal inspection and even as far as rebuilding of our pumps.....they are "thinking" about it! :)

-Walter
 
Great to see March here on the boards. I have 4 809 pumps and generally, they work great. The priming issue can be a challenge at times but over time, I have become more adept and dealing with my system and priming issues.

As far as priming the pumps go, basic rule is this: Keep the pump below the liquid level and when you open the supply valve the fluid should flood the pump naturally with just gravity. The discharge of the pump should be at the highest point of the pump if possible. If you have the pump mounted horizontally, then the inlet will be on your left and outlet will be on your right when you are facing the pump. If mounted vertically then the outlet pointing to the ceiling is the best way.

What's the story with the Morebeer March pump I saw an ad for recently? They claimed faster pumping speeds with a few minor tweaks. Does this pump prime more easily than the current pumphead? Can you make suggestions as to reducing cavitation and getting things to flow a bit more easily?

That pump has the following that's different from the standard 809: Mounting base, 6' cord, and the 815 pump impeller inside.
If you are getting cavitation then its usually cause by a couple things:
1. you have a restriction on the inlet side of the pump...either the line is too small or the fittings/elbows/valves etc are restricting the flow rate to the pump.
2. you have air trapped inside the pump. Turn the pump off for a second and let gravity try and purge any air in the pump head out...make sure the outlet is the highest point of the pump.
3. you may be sucking air either from a vortex being created inside your tank or a loose connection of the supply line.

Also, how about a part number for a stainless head with opposing 1/2 NPT threads to replace the polysulfone ones I currently use? I have a great March dealer in Albuquerque I deal with and can order through them. Thanks Walter. Appreciate the homebrew love.

Unfortunately we don't make an inline version of that head :( The polysufone is the only option for the inline version. If you wanted a slightly beefier version of the Polysulfone head then order the 0809-0171-0100 That's the inline head but instead of 1/2"NPT threads it has 1" NPT threads on it. Just keep in mind that if you are using metal fittings on a plastic part its easy to over torque the plastic and break it.

-Walter
 
Sawdustguy said:
+1 Is there a reason why nobody makes an affordable self priming magnetic drive pump?
Click to expand...

Its mostly because with a mag-drive, when you make it into a self primer then you are in essence making the pump into a suction pump instead of a transfer pump. In a mag-drive pump, when operating properly, the impeller spins on its shaft in a neutral position between the rear housing and the front housing. When you create a restriction on the inlet side of the pump the impeller gets sucked forward against its thrust washer. Depending on how bad the restriction is it can operate in this fashion for ever...or more often then not the impeller starts cutting into the thrust washer and will either wear it out and start contact the front housing....wear the front of the impeller out...or will jam itself and decouple the mag-drive system. There's just too many problems for most mfg's to deal with when a positive displacement pump will outperform us in these fields....

-Walter
 
I have all ready recieved two calls today from people who said they saw these postings on this forum :D Glad i could help you guys...Not sure if they were memebers of the forum or not and I'm sorry but i forgot the one that gave me his name and i forgot to ask the other for his name, but it was nice talking with the two of you :)

-Walter
 
pola0502ds said:
Whats the best way to clean these march pumps? After a brew day.
Click to expand...

Well, i would imagine you guys are sanitizing them after your brew sessions to keep "stuff" from growing inside between brewrings??? But the very minimum i would run the pumps on a batch of warm clean water for about 5min to make sure yo get all the sugars out from between the shaft and impeller.

-Walter
 
WalterAtMarchPump said:
If you are getting cavitation then its usually cause by a couple things:
1. you have a restriction on the inlet side of the pump...either the line is too small or the fittings/elbows/valves etc are restricting the flow rate to the pump.
2. you have air trapped inside the pump. Turn the pump off for a second and let gravity try and purge any air in the pump head out...make sure the outlet is the highest point of the pump.
3. you may be sucking air either from a vortex being created inside your tank or a loose connection of the supply line.[/COLOR]

-Walter
Click to expand...

Hi Walter. Very cool that you're doing some Q&A.

I have an 809 and have been having trouble pumping boiling water. It works fine otherwise. I've had some people on the forum tell me that it was likely cavitation causing my problem. If that's true, I suspect this is due to the restriction caused by my dip tube. I plan to do a test run without it, so.....

Asuming the pump is primed, there is no restriction to flow, and the pump is not sucking "air" anywhere, it should be able to pump 212F water right? What if the water is at a state of rolling boil and water vapor is bubbling up pretty rapidly inside the vessel being pumped out? Could this perharps cause water vapor to get trapped in the pump head since I am not using a pressurized system? If I have the pump oriented correctly and water vapor does make it into the pump head while in operation, will the vapor continue up and out of the pump head or does the pump need to be shut off for this to happen? Lastly, you mentioned that higher temps adversely affect the magnets on the drive. Although I'm sure that I will never exceed the 250F ceiling, will repeated / prolonged exposures to boiling temperatures reduce the life and or efficiency of the magnets? If the magnets do get "damaged" can just the magnet drives be replaced (part number would be great) or does the whole pump head need replaced at that point?

Thanks in Advance.....again it's very cool of you to help us out with these issues.
 
the reason why I asked what to use to clean the pumps was because what i really want to know is, is PBW safe to run through the pumps. Obviously some of you do it but is there any long term effects from using it?
 
Forgot to ask my question, i have 2 new march pumps and I'm about to install them. Is there a preferred orientation of how i should place the inlet or outlet?

Or will installing them in any direction do just as good?
 
@pola0502ds here ya go ...
WalterAtMarchPump said:
As far as priming the pumps go, basic rule is this: Keep the pump below the liquid level and when you open the supply valve the fluid should flood the pump naturally with just gravity. The discharge of the pump should be at the highest point of the pump if possible. If you have the pump mounted horizontally, then the inlet will be on your left and outlet will be on your right when you are facing the pump. If mounted vertically then the outlet pointing to the ceiling is the best way.
Click to expand...
 
BBL_Brewer said:
Hi Walter. Very cool that you're doing some Q&A.

I have an 809 and have been having trouble pumping boiling water. It works fine otherwise. I've had some people on the forum tell me that it was likely cavitation causing my problem. If that's true, I suspect this is due to the restriction caused by my dip tube. I plan to do a test run without it, so.....

Asuming the pump is primed, there is no restriction to flow, and the pump is not sucking "air" anywhere, it should be able to pump 212F water right? What if the water is at a state of rolling boil and water vapor is bubbling up pretty rapidly inside the vessel being pumped out? Could this perharps cause water vapor to get trapped in the pump head since I am not using a pressurized system? If I have the pump oriented correctly and water vapor does make it into the pump head while in operation, will the vapor continue up and out of the pump head or does the pump need to be shut off for this to happen? Lastly, you mentioned that higher temps adversely affect the magnets on the drive. Although I'm sure that I will never exceed the 250F ceiling, will repeated / prolonged exposures to boiling temperatures reduce the life and or efficiency of the magnets? If the magnets do get "damaged" can just the magnet drives be replaced (part number would be great) or does the whole pump head need replaced at that point?

Thanks in Advance.....again it's very cool of you to help us out with these issues.
Click to expand...

If you are trying to pump liquid at a rolling boil then you may run into problems with air getting trapped in the pump head during the pumping phase. I would turn off your burners and let the liquid settle down so you dont have any more bubbling. The pumps can handle liquids up to 250*F but not with air in them. Passing air through the pump during operation would be a hit or miss thing depending on how big the air pocket is the pump is trying to pass. The magnets dont start seeing any kind of damage till 250*+ They start to loose magnetizem and each time you do that the magnets loose about 10-15% of their magnetic properties which doesnt come back. If you were to damage the magents i would replace them both as you cant tell how strong the magnets are unless to have a way of doing torque testing on them.


-Walter
 
pola0502ds said:
the reason why I asked what to use to clean the pumps was because what i really want to know is, is PBW safe to run through the pumps. Obviously some of you do it but is there any long term effects from using it?
Click to expand...


Not sure what PBW is made from...but if you post a chemical composition of it i can look it up and see if anything will cause problems. Usually for short term exposure it wont harm anything unless its in real strong concentrations.

-Walter
 
Is there a reasonable place to get replacement parts for march pumps, or do you self distribute at all for parts? I tried to contact a local distributor twice and got nothing in response.

Joshua
 
The PBW does not attack polysulfone or silicone in the o-ring. It is safe to use for this application. The only issue I see is beer stone like build up over time on the inside of the pump head but it is a minor issue and doesn't really mean anything.
 
jfkriege said:
Is there a reasonable place to get replacement parts for march pumps, or do you self distribute at all for parts? I tried to contact a local distributor twice and got nothing in response.

Joshua
Click to expand...

We unfortunatly do not sell direct :( All i can do is give you the listings of our distributors: Distributors and i would suggest giving a few a call directly. You can call any one of them..not just who's local to you.

-Walter
 
Irrenarzt said:
The only reason the siiicate is listed is due to an inhalation hazard. The real magic is from the phosphates in terms of cleaning ability.
Click to expand...

Yeah as i said it is a bit vague, 30% sodium metasilicate / 70% others.
Do you know exactly what is in it?
 

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