Yeast starter too long

Question concerning my yeast starter. I made it on wednesday with the intention to brew this friday (today). Can i hold off brewing until Sunday, or is that too long? The weather is $hitty around here, but looks nice on sunday.

If it matters, i used a wyeast smack pack, quart of water, half cup DME as instructed in a youtube video. This is my first yeast starter.

You'll be fine. I would stick it into the fridge until then. When your brewday comes, warm it up, decant the liquid and pitch. That simple.

That size starter is used mainly to "wake up" the yeast so they are ready to work. The yeast won't replicate much, if at all. Typically you would make this size only 5-6 hours prior to brewing. So making it on Wed for a Friday brew is not really correct. That being said, to answer your question, it will be fine. Stick it in the fridge. On Sunday, take out of fridge and warm to room temp, mix up another batch of starter wort , 5-6 hours prior to needing the starter, decant most of the liquid and leave a bit to swirl and break up the yeast cake and pour the new starter wort on the yeast.

Now, if you want to make a starter to grow yeast, mix up a 2L starter wort, decant the starter you already made and pour the 2L starter on the yeast 12-16 hours prior to needing it.

Make sense?

14 Essential questions about yeast starters

yeastcalc

No worries. If you're really wanting to make sure it's good to go, a few days before brew day, decant off the starter beer and add fresh, cooled wort to the slurry to get the yeasties going again.

Thanks for all the input everyone!

How am I suppost to get any kind of post count if all my questions are answered in threads like this. I have the EXACT same issue. Started a starter on Tuesday to brew on Thursday. But Thursday I ended up putting the starter in the fridge untill Saturday hopefully brewing on Sunday. Now I think I am on the right track. Thanks jetmac and Homebrewtalk!

NordeastBrewer77 said:

a few days before brew day, decant off the starter beer and add fresh, cooled wort to the slurry to get the yeasties going again.

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I disagree. He's pitching 1 smack pack into a 1/2 cup of DME. This tells me he's not trying to grow yeast, simply wake them up to get to work. If he wanted to grow yeast, yes, he could do it 72 hours ahead of time (although I believe that's a little long. I think 12-30 hours would be fine) and make a 1.5-2L starter.

jetmac said:

I disagree. He's pitching 1 smack pack into a 1/2 cup of DME. This tells me he's not trying to grow yeast, simply wake them up to get to work. If he wanted to grow yeast, yes, he could do it 72 hours ahead of time (although I believe that's a little long. I think 12-30 hours would be fine) and make a 1.5-2L starter.

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Sooooo, aren't we kinda saying the same thing? Make a small starter to get the yeasties going? I dunno, maybe I missed something.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Sooooo, aren't we kinda saying the same thing? Make a small starter to get the yeasties going? I dunno, maybe I missed something.

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Waking them up only takes 5-6 hours in a .5L starter. Just enough time to brew.
In a .5L starter there is not enough sugar to chomp on for 72 hours. They would be dormant again. So you would have to make another .5L starter on brew day.

I know some will disagree, but IMHO, even going beyond 36 hours in a 1.5-2L starter that you want to grow yeast in on a stir plate is too long. If you have to go more than 36 hours, you may as well, stick it in the fridge, let it settle then make another .5L starter on brew day. Otherwise, IMO you're just beating the yeast up because there is nothing left to eat except each other.

jetmac said:

In a .5L starter

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But the OP said a quart, not half. So roughly a liter, right? And half a cup is roughly 100 g of DME (though we know it's much better to measure by weight). So using that in yeastcalc and assuming he has about 90 billion cells he'd get 126 billion new cells using a stir plate, and about 90 billion using intermittent shaking. That's a lot of growth.

Heck, even in a .5 L starter (with about 50 g DME) you're getting almost a doubling.

What am I missing?

Onlooker said:

But the OP said a quart, not half.

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My bad

I'm lost. When I make starters, I fully ferment them and then fridge to drop the yeast before decanting and pitching. I think the OP was concerned about leaving the finished starter in the fridge too long before use, which in his case was a matter of days. Had it been me (and actually, I have two starters finished, in the beer fridge, that won't get use til next weekend), I'd simply pitch the starters on brew day, the yeast'll wake up n get going when they hit the fermenter.
Jetmac, I think we're looking at starters differently, seems that you make starters to get the yeast going and pitch active yeast, right. I make them to grow up the right population for the batch I'm brewing, I'm not concerned about pitching already active yeast, and seldom pitch an active, full starter.

jetmac said:

That size starter is used mainly to "wake up" the yeast so they are ready to work. The yeast won't replicate much, if at all. Typically you would make this size only 5-6 hours prior to brewing. So making it on Wed for a Friday brew is not really correct. That being said, to answer your question, it will be fine. Stick it in the fridge. On Sunday, take out of fridge and warm to room temp, mix up another batch of starter wort , 5-6 hours prior to needing the starter, decant most of the liquid and leave a bit to swirl and break up the yeast cake and pour the new starter wort on the yeast.

Now, if you want to make a starter to grow yeast, mix up a 2L starter wort, decant the starter you already made and pour the 2L starter on the yeast 12-16 hours prior to needing it.

Make sense?

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I don't think this is correct.

The primary purpose of a starter is not to wake up yeast, its to increase the number of yeast. Frequently the number of yeast in a packet is 100Billion or less, and optimally double that amount is needed. Hence the yeast starter.

As for how long to let the starter ferment - there are 2 schools of thought - high Krausen (18 hours later) - or let it ferment out (5 days) refrigerate for a couple of days, decant and pour it in the wort on Brew Day.

read Yeast by Chris White p 133.


Also - the OP made close to a 1 liter starter (1 quart + the DME will be more than a quart). Thats the correct size for his intentions.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

the yeast'll wake up n get going when they hit the fermenter.

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It is better to pitch yeast that are active for a quicker start and less chance of off-flavors.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Jetmac, I think we're looking at starters differently, seems that you make starters to get the yeast going and pitch active yeast, right. I make them to grow up the right population for the batch I'm brewing, I'm not concerned about pitching already active yeast, and seldom pitch an active, full starter.

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Actually I combine the two. I always make a starter with liquid yeast. I can buy 1 vial or smack pack and increase the cell count to save money. (Even if I bought enough for the correct cell count I would still make a small starter) When I am ready to pitch, I am either pitching during an active step up or I'm satisfied with the cell count and I have made the starter to wake up the yeast. A small .5L starter.

jetmac said:

It is better to pitch yeast that are active for a quicker start and less chance of off-flavors.



Actually I combine the two. I always make a starter with liquid yeast. I can buy 1 vial or smack pack and increase the cell count to save money. (Even if I bought enough for the correct cell count I would still make a small starter) When I am ready to pitch, I am either pitching during an active step up or I'm satisfied with the cell count and I have made the starter to wake up the yeast. A small .5L starter.

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Personally, I've never noticed a difference between pitching active yeast and inactive yeast, assuming that the cell count is appropriate. In fact, the last time I pitched an active starter, at high krausen, I had an abnormally long lag time, like 12+ hours.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's far more important to focus on cell count and not active yeast. Regardless of activity, the yeast you pitch are going to go into a lag/reproductive phase again after pitching and before becoming visibly active in the wort. I'd much rather pitch the proper amount of dormant slurry than pitch the same amount of active yeast with starter 'beer' included.
FWIW, I've never noticed any yeast derived 'off flavors' from pitching inactive slurry.

ArcLight said:

I don't think this is correct.

The primary purpose of a starter is not to wake up yeast, its to increase the number of yeast.

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Actually there are 2 reasons to make a starter. 1) to wake the yeast up when the yeast are dormant and you have the correct cell count 2) to increase cell count

jetmac said:

Actually there are 2 reasons to make a starter. 1) to wake the yeast up when the yeast are dormant and you have the correct cell count 2) to increase cell count

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Actually, it's to produce enough yeast. Regardless of cell count, yeast will wake up when you pitch them into your beer. However, if you don't pitch enough, they may be pi$$ed and wake up to make bad beer.

My .02¢ for reasons to make a starter:

1) Improve the overall health of the yeast.

2) Increase cell count.

Sulli said:

My .02¢ for reasons to make a starter:

1) Improve the overall health of the yeast.

2) Increase cell count.

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This has me thinking about why we all make starters. I make them to increase cell count and ensure viability (if using WLP), and pay little attention to whether or not they're active on brew day. Hell, I use dry yeast a ton, half the time w/o rehydrating, and dry yeast is as dormant as can be until it gets some sugar to eat.
Methinks I'll make a poll and see why others make their starters.......

Made a poll here.

I feel the main reason to make a starter is to ensure that you have healthy yeast. I don't pitch at "high krausen" either, but making a starter gives me some consistency. I like what George Fix has to say about consistency:


Having the appropriate cell count is important, but if your yeast is not healthy your not going to get a healthy ferment, regardless of how many yeast cells you throw in your wort.

Sulli said:

I feel the main reason to make a starter is to ensure that you have healthy yeast. I don't pitch at "high krausen" either, but making a starter gives me some consistency. I like what George Fix has to say about consistency:

"Consistent methods = consistent excellence."​

Having the appropriate cell count is important, but if your yeast is not healthy your not going to get a healthy ferment, regardless of how many yeast cells you throw in your wort.

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Totally true. My original point is that a few extra days in the fridge isn't going to hurt the yeast that were just grown in the ~1L starter. Albeit that growth is minimal in a ~1L starter, but the yeast won't suffer because of a short time in the fridge. I think of it as a big vial, viability and cell count does decrease over time, but not that fast. Whenever I've had a worry about a starter that I'd left in the fridge for too long, I simply use the slurry to make a new starter. Probably unnecessary most of the time, but it makes me feel better.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

I make them to grow up the right population for the batch I'm brewing, I'm not concerned about pitching already active yeast, and seldom pitch an active, full starter.

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That's exactly my approach to it, and comes from all the studying I've done on it, including the Yeast book by Chris White and JZ.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's far more important to focus on cell count and not active yeast.

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Well of course.

NordeastBrewer77 said:

I'd much rather pitch the proper amount of dormant slurry than pitch the same amount of active yeast with starter 'beer' included.

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Not me

NordeastBrewer77 said:

FWIW, I've never noticed any yeast derived 'off flavors' from pitching inactive slurry.

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I knew you were going to say that

NordeastBrewer77 said:

Hell, I use dry yeast a ton, half the time w/o rehydrating,

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And about half die as a result. I not saying you're wrong, but you'll make better beer if you rehydrate

jetmac said:

You'll make better beer if you rehydrate

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Well of course.

Actually, to be technical, they say that up to 60% viability can be lost from dry pitching. But that's a different topic for a different thread.

So to throw my .02 in the ring here.

I make starters based upon the numbers derived from Www.yeastcalc.com based upon the date on the pack and the beer gravity so I achieve the proper pitching rate and healthy cells.

This is my primary concern. I crash and decant all my starters and pitch cold and allow to self rise to the desired fermentation temperature for a controlled fermentation. BTW, this is detailed in the book "Yeast" and is a practice followed by many successful home brewers and recommended by many BJCP judges.

I don't concern myself with pitching "active" yeast as the yeast get to work themselves in a well aerated wort. The supply of O2 is paramount in the initial phase of fermentation and if the wort is aerated properly lag time is minimal.

There is actually an entire article in the latest "Brew Your Own" devoted to yeast and it's phases of fermentation and it's a great article!

duboman said:

I crash and decant all my starters and pitch cold and allow to self rise to the desired fermentation temperature for a controlled fermentation.

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As long as we're throwing out quotes from books and articles, here's one from Mr Malty "It is best to keep your starter around the general temperature you're going to pitch, if you're going to pitch the complete starter into the beer. According to Dr. Clayton Cone, one of the foremost experts on yeast, the yeast should be within 15F of the wort they're being pitched into. Neva Parker, the Laboratory Manger at White Labs, suggests a maximum swing of 10F and ideally 5F."

Neva Parker a Lab Manager at White labs says "ideally you want to pitch within 5F"

duboman said:

BTW, this is detailed in the book "Yeast" and is a practice followed by many successful home brewers and recommended by many BJCP judges.

I don't concern myself with pitching "active" yeast as the yeast get to work themselves in a well aerated wort. The supply of O2 is paramount in the initial phase of fermentation and if the wort is aerated properly lag time is minimal.

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Here is another one from Jamil himself " I like to pitch starters while they're still very active and as soon as the bulk of reproduction is finished, usually within 8 to 18 hours"

"If you're making a smaller starter, it is better to just pitch the entire active starter within about 6 to 12 hours of pitching the yeast into the starter" JZ

I usually make a 1 liter or 2 liter starter 3 days before brewday. I leave it on the stir plate for a day. Plenty of time for it to finish IMO. Then cold crash for 2 days in fridge. On brewday, I decant and leave the yeast at room temp while I'm brewing. That way it's around the same temp as my wort when it comes time to pitch

I asked Jamil Z to comment on this on his facebook page. This is what he said

"Seems like most people have a good handle on the subject. The question of are you making starters for growth or health, it is really both and you can focus on one or the other. If you are growing yeast, you tend to have a large starter and
should put it in the fridge to settle and decant. You don't want to add a lot of starter wort to your beer. The yeast will be fine for a few days. If you want them highly active again, then just add the yeast to a little starter wort the morning of brew day and they should be ready by pitching time. One guy said that he got longer lags with active yeast. The lag time is really dependent on the growth of the yeast once you pitch. If they spend longer growing, then it looks like a longer lag. If you add lots of O2, that can increase the lag time."

I have begun to take the starter out of the fridge on brew day, decant it, and leave it to warm to room temp. Then I take a bit of the runnings and put aside. While I wait for the kettle to boil, I boil that bit on the stovetop, cool it quickly and slosh it in with the slurry in the starter. By the time I am ready to pitch, the starter is cranking and ready to go again, plus I don't have reservations about pitching the whole mess. I have noticed (imagined?) a quicker start to fermentation since doing this.

Even if it's a waste of time and energy, idle hands on brew day make for premature drunkenness, so it all works out