What makes a Helles a Helles?

I brewed up what I am calling a Helles today but I'm not sure if it truly is one. The BJCP says you need to use pilsner malt. Well, I used Rahr Pale Ale. All of my numbers fall into the Helles range and I'm using the White Labs Munich Helles yeast. Would you call this a Helles or something else? My recipe was 9.8lbs Rahr Pale Ale (3.8^L) and two additions of Hallertauer hops (1oz at 60, 0.5oz at 10).

If you made chicken soup but used turkey instead of chicken would it still be chicken soup?

It's beer, a light lager, but not technically a Helles as the flavors of the base malts are not identical. But if you call it a Helles only an insignificant segment of the population would be able to tell the difference.

Like anything, the numbers aren't the end of it. There are the technical specs but you could meet the exact same specs using wheat malt, and chinook hops. It would not be a Helles. The BJCP has this to say "malty but fully attenuated pils malt showcase."

If you are brewing for competition, that's one thing. But if you just want a nice beer, whatever malt will suffice.

highgravitybacon said:

If you are brewing for competition, that's one thing. But if you just want a nice beer, whatever malt will suffice.

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This is true, but if you're trying to make a Helles, and you use standard US 2-row, you're not making a Helles. It could be a phenomenal beer. Just not a Helles.

Maybe an American light lager?

Just kicked my helles Sunday. My first true lager! I also used that yeast, I was super impressed with it. I racked a batch of maibock onto the yeast cake. Super clean, low diacetyl, fast and full attenuation, flocks great. A great beer and a great yeast. Too bad it's only seasonal.

BigEd said:

... if you call it a Helles only an insignificant segment of the population would be able to tell the difference.

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I'm with this guy...

I say enter it into a few competitions as a Helles, and see what happens...

Frankly, I'd wait until you taste it to determine what to call it. Pils malt has a more distinctive grainy flavor IMHO, which is going to be noticeable in a Helles. If your beer when you taste it has that, you might be able to get away with passing Rahr off for Pils malt. If not, it's a Premium American Lager (1C).

But I think if you make the nice, crisp clean lager you're looking for, the flavor will be dominated more by the malt type than the yeast, so the use of Helles yeast may not make the beer taste distinctively like a Helles.

Check out the latest issue of BYO (or Zymurgy, but I'm pretty sure it's BYO) they have an article on Kolsch and Helles.

What makes a Helles a Helles?

My answer: It depends upon whom you ask.

If you ask the BJCP, then yes, the answers you've gotten so far I'd imagine are correct.

If you ask a typical German, he or she would likely say that of course what you're brewing is a Helles.

Helles, in German, simply means light in color. This is opposed to Dunkel, which means dark.

Mozart said:

What makes a Helles a Helles?

My answer: It depends upon whom you ask.

If you ask the BJCP, then yes, the answers you've gotten so far I'd imagine are correct.

If you ask a typical German, he or she would likely say that of course what you're brewing is a Helles.

Helles, in German, simply means light in color. This is opposed to Dunkel, which means dark.

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Even though the words themselves have original meanings within the language, the terms have developed different meanings within the context of beer. Try asking a German whether a Helles can be made without Pilsner, I'm sure he would be offended. Germany is probably the most strict standard-driven country in the world when it comes to beer (among many other things.) They pride themselves on definitions, hence the reinheitsgebot.

The terms have taken on additional meanings, but have not lost their original meanings.

Germans still refer to any and all lightly-colored beers as 'helles', as a way of differentiating them from their darker counterparts.

Or, at least, Austrians do. My wife is Austrian and we travel there frequently to visit friends and family. I speak some German as well -- enough that I feel comfortable exploring on my own without having to speak English. Ask my wife, or any of her friends what a 'helles' beer is, and they will think of the color, not necessarily the strict Munich style.

As the question in Munich, though, and I'm sure it's possible you might get a different answer.

In the end the ONLY thing that matters is what hits the glass... if it looks/tastes like Helles it is more Helles than a flawed beer using the "proper" ingredients. Insisting that a beer, any beer, isn't a particular style simply because of some added or altered ingredient is just being pedantic.

Mozart said:

Germans still refer to any and all lightly-colored beers as 'helles', as a way of differentiating them from their darker counterparts.

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they most certainly do not.

are you saying, if I was in germany and wanted a hefeweizen, I should just order a "Helles"?

TheZymurgist said:

Try asking a German whether a Helles can be made without Pilsner, I'm sure he would be offended. Germany is probably the most strict standard-driven country in the world when it comes to beer (among many other things.) They pride themselves on definitions, hence the reinheitsgebot.

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I am German, and I approve this message

"Helles" is a regional (bavarian) expression for "Light (color) Lager" in most other parts of Germany, this beer would be referred to as "Pils".
The thing is that we traditionally don't have typical pale ales around here as common in the US. Light (color) Ales in Germany are usually Hefeweizen (or as they call them in bavaria "Weißbier") or Kölsch, of course there are always exeptions and in the last 5-10 years things also started to change a little bit around here, so you can find pale ales in some places (if you know, where to look).

motobrewer said:

they most certainly do not.

are you saying, if I was in germany and wanted a hefeweizen, I should just order a "Helles"?

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Of course not.

What I am saying is that the word hasn't lost its original meaning with regard to beer, at least not in Austria.

Furthermore, wheats are a bit different. Everyone knows what a wheat beer is and will refer to it as such.

What I am saying is that if you were to visit Austria, go somewhere they serve more than one kind of beer, and order a Hellesbeir I can pretty much guarantee you'll be served a pale lager, and most likely, a Märzen (Austrian Märzen is lighter in color and body than its German counterpart).

Edit: It helps to bear in mind just how regional beers in Germany and Austria really are. Hefeweizens and Munich Helles are both products of Bavaria. It can be difficult to find them elsewhere, like in Austria. Order a helles outside of the region that produces the Munich Helles, and I'd suspect the person you're talking to would assume you mean 'light' as opposed to the specific Bavarian style. I know this is the case in Austria, and suspect it to be the case in portions of Germany as well.

Like I said, it just depends who you ask.

Cheers!

Mozart said:

Of course not.

What I am saying is that the word hasn't lost its original meaning with regard to beer, at least not in Austria.

Furthermore, wheats are a bit different. Everyone knows what a wheat beer is and will refer to it as such.

What I am saying is that if you were to visit Austria, go somewhere they serve more than one kind of beer, and order a Hellesbeir I can pretty much guarantee you'll be served a pale lager, and most likely, a Märzen (Austrian Märzen is lighter in color and body than its German counterpart).

Edit: It helps to bear in mind just how regional beers in Germany and Austria really are. Hefeweizens and Munich Helles are both products of Bavaria. It can be difficult to find them elsewhere, like in Austria. Order a helles outside of the region that produces the Munich Helles, and I'd suspect the person you're talking to would assume you mean 'light' as opposed to the specific Bavarian style. I know this is the case in Austria, and suspect it to be the case in portions of Germany as well.

Like I said, it just depends who you ask.

Cheers!

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Hate to beat a dead horse, but having lived in Munich and worked with a few Austrians who, admittedly, we're from right on the border, and no one would call a bier a helles unless its printed as such on the bottle. Pils is pils, kolsch is kolsch, and helles is helles. Hellesbier could totally be used to describe a light colored beer, but that's literally what you are saying (and the waitress might give you a knowing smile). I've heard clients from outside of Bavaria order simply "bier" and were a little upset when they got a helles rather than a pilsner.

Now having played devils advocate, I think I could only do a blind taste test between Bischoff Edelpils and Augustiner Helles in my daydreams. Kolsch is pretty distinct though. Kellerbier is the style that I TRULY could tell almost no difference from a helles.

Bigelow92 said:

Hate to beat a dead horse, but having lived in Munich and worked with a few Austrians who, admittedly, we're from right on the border, and no one would call a bier a helles unless its printed as such on the bottle.

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Fair enough.

The part of Austria I'm familiar with is Styria.

Darn fine beer, no matter what it's called! I think we can agree on that.

Now having played devils advocate, I think I could only do a blind taste test between Bischoff Edelpils and Augustiner Helles in my daydreams. Kolsch is pretty distinct though. Kellerbier is the style that I TRULY could tell almost no difference from a helles.

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Edelstoff or Export? The Stammtisch that I was lucky enough to be a guest at when I lived in Germany drank Export. It's still my favorite Helles.

I wonder what CAMRL has to say about this?

Mb2658 said:

Edelstoff or Export? The Stammtisch that I was lucky enough to be a guest at when I lived in Germany drank Export. It's still my favorite Helles.

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Really? They drank Edelstoff at the stammtisch? I've met a few Germans who preferred Edelstoff to the green label, but I've always been under the impression that they export all the beer that doesn't pass their very very rigorous quality checks on the beer to be sold in Bavaria. Get it? The special stuff goes in the non-descript bottle and the perhaps slightly lower quality goes into the bottled labeled "fancy stuff."

No but seriously, I'm pretty sure I was told by a rep at he Oktoberfest that Edelstoff is "a different, time honored recipe than their München Helles, which is better suited for the lengthy time periods associated with international distribution," which I understood as "more bitter" since they're not allowed to add chemical preservative (I know, I know... EVERYTHING is chemicals and the Germans should know this best. Try getting them to pasteurize their milk! But that is dumb that we can't buy unpasteurized milk here right? I as an American, was born to consume unpasteurized milk, but short of owning a cow I'm SOL when I comes to finding it.)

Sorry, it's only been like six months since gettin back from the land of beer and pretzels, and talking about Augustiner made me all sentimental

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f57/2011-1st-place-hbt-light-lager-augustiner-lagerbier-hell-238906/

Just made this one, no pilsen malt in it. 8|

http://***********/component/k2/item/747-helles-style-profile

Thought this was an interesting article. Gives a lot of history on the style.

IMO you have a Helles. Let the judges decide how authentic it is.

TheZymurgist said:

Even though the words themselves have original meanings within the language, the terms have developed different meanings within the context of beer. Try asking a German whether a Helles can be made without Pilsner, I'm sure he would be offended. Germany is probably the most strict standard-driven country in the world when it comes to beer (among many other things.) They pride themselves on definitions, hence the reinheitsgebot.

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I'm pretty sure if you asked the average German beer drinker if you could brew a Helles without pilsner malt, they wouldn't know what the helles you were talking about. It all comes down to taste; if it tastes like one, it is one. I'm sure you could brew a fine beer that would do well in competitions without using continental pilsner malt.

I appreciate all of the responses. This beer wasn't brewed for competition. I thought it'd be fun to make since the yeast was on sale for $1. My original thought was that the yeast is the deciding factor in determining the style. One poster asked if you made chicken soup with turkey would it still be chicken soup. Well, no but how many chicken soups are exactly the same? Maybe the yeast is the chicken, maybe the malt is the chicken.

All I really care about is how it tastes. It's in the d-rest stage now and will be lagered at 36 degrees for a month. A nice salute to the end of summer.

aryoung1980 said:

I appreciate all of the responses. This beer wasn't brewed for competition. I thought it'd be fun to make since the yeast was on sale for $1. My original thought was that the yeast is the deciding factor in determining the style. One poster asked if you made chicken soup with turkey would it still be chicken soup. Well, no but how many chicken soups are exactly the same? Maybe the yeast is the chicken, maybe the malt is the chicken.

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Yeah that was me. My point being that it is the ingredients and their ratios that separate a Helles from other light lagers. And by ingredients I mean malt and hops to provide the light color, pilsner malt flavor and delicate hop balance that sets a Helles apart. The yeast is important only as much as one of the southern German/Munich strains would be an appropriate choice.

aryoung1980 said:

All I really care about is how it tastes. It's in the d-rest stage now and will be lagered at 36 degrees for a month. A nice salute to the end of summer.

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And that's really what it's all about.

FarmerTed said:

I'm pretty sure if you asked the average German beer drinker if you could brew a Helles without pilsner malt, they wouldn't know what the helles you were talking about. It all comes down to taste; if it tastes like one, it is one. I'm sure you could brew a fine beer that would do well in competitions without using continental pilsner malt.

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True, but ask the average beer drinker what a Pilsner is, or even what a Lager or an Ale is for that matter, they have no idea. You're right, ultimately it does come down to taste, and if you make something that's close to a style that doesn't adhere strictly to style guidelines, you're able to call it that style.

However, the OP asked a specific question. "What makes a Helles a Helles?" In order to answer that, a specific answer is needed, and you have to look at both the historical brewing practices and current style guidelines.

I just tapped my keg tonight (technically this morning) and a verdict has been reached. It definitely tastes like a Helles and a delicious one at that. After our group discussion I decided a Helles needs to have pilsner malt but I also decided, just now, to enter it into a competition as one. I will post my score and comments once I have them.

Please do!!

I more or less specialize in Boh Pils. I have a brewing friend who kept pestering me to brew a Helles because he likes my Pils so I finally said OK, bought the Helles book in the BA series, read it and wound up asking myself "What will I do differently from what I do when I brew Pils?" The answer wasn't clear so I consulted other folks who brew both and the answer I got was 1)Do the saccharification rest at a slightly higher temperature and 2)Don't use the Budvar or PU yeast strains. So I did a couple of beers that way and they are different. I'd have to say most of the difference comes from the yeast strains and as yeast strain doesn't have as large an effect on flavor in lager as it does in ale the differences were not profound. Don't get me wrong here. Two otherwise identical beers brewed one with the PU strain and the other with the Budvar strain are noticeably different as is a Helles brewed with a 'Bavarian Lager' strain but I'm sure that I could give any of these three beers to an uneducated drinker and he wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Remember that Helles was developed to compete with the Bohemian Pilsner. One wouldn't expect it to be terribly different.

ajdelange said:

Remember that Helles was developed to compete with the Bohemian Pilsner. One wouldn't expect it to be terribly different.

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I would expect that to a beer judge a mid-1.040s Helles with 20-ish IBUs, German hops for flavour and aroma and a max FG of 1.012 would be quite different from a 1.050 Boh Pils with 40-ish IBUs, Saaz hops for flavour and aroma and a min FG of 1.013.

To most drinkers, though, I agree they would be very similar. I am really enjoying a Helles right now that I made this spring. Really nice beer after lagering for a couple of months.

osagedr said:

I would expect that to a beer judge a mid-1.040s Helles with 20-ish IBUs, German hops for flavour and aroma and a max FG of 1.012 would be quite different from a 1.050 Boh Pils with 40-ish IBUs, Saaz hops for flavour and aroma and a min FG of 1.013.

To most drinkers, though, I agree they would be very similar. I am really enjoying a Helles right now that I made this spring. Really nice beer after lagering for a couple of months.

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That would assume a rational beer judge, which after entering several competitions recently, I would put the chances of encountering no higher than 40%.

highgravitybacon said:

That would assume a rational beer judge, which after entering several competitions recently, I would put the chances of encountering no higher than 40%.

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Not only rational, but well educated, and skilled enough to tell the difference between two very similar styles.