Session APA Recipe formulation w/ FWH

Hello -

I noticed that every keg I have filled now is dark and over 6.25% ABV, so I wanna make a nice session-able APA, with a lot of hop aroma/flavor but not TOO much bitterness. I wanted to try for mostly late additions and FWH to achieve this. I have never done this, so it is difficult to determine whether the hop amounts are ok. I am using a very small 60 min bittering addition.

The IBU's are high for the style, BUT when I change the FWH addition to 20 minute boil additions. (As I understand it, FWH will give a 20 min. boil type bitterness)
Then the IBU's are LOW for the style

I am actually thinking I may need more late hops here....maybe add a 10 min addition w at least 1 oz of each hop (cascade, centennial)

Here's what I have worked up, so far, any comments would be greatly appreciated, especially from experienced FWHoppers! ( I also have Nugget, Williamette, and Goldings available)

I am considering replacing the 2# Victory with 2# of Crystal 40, as the 15 lbs of UK 2Row should give me some flavor type of what the victory would.

BTW - hop utilization set to Beersmith Std for FWH - 10%
Also, RAGER formula.

Thanks all and Merry Xmas!!!



Xmas Pale Ale 2009

Batch Size: 26 gallons
Pre boil: 28.8 gallons.
78% efficiency

Est Original Gravity: 1.048 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.70 %
Bitterness: 41.9 IBU Calories: 212 cal/pint
Est Color: 7.6 SRM
Bitterness ratio: .88


Amount Item Type % or IBU
21 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 47.73 %
15 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 34.09 %
2 lbs Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
2 lbs Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
2 lbs Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
2 lbs Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %

1.00 oz Centennial [11.20 %] (60 min BOIL) Hops 8.7 IBU
2.00 oz Centennial [11.20 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 9.5 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [5.70 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 4.9 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [5.70 %] (5 min) Hops 1.6 IBU
2.00 oz Centennial [11.20 %] (5 min) Hops 2.9 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [5.70 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
2.00 oz Centennial [11.20 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -

Might do a couple oz's dryhop, too.

American Ale yeast blend (blend of wyeast 1056 and Safale 05)

Mash at 152, 1 hr
Mashout 168 and fly sparge

Consider adding Willamette as your bittering addition? More atypical, but a lower AAU would enable some large flavor and aroma additions will keeping the maltiness loosely in check.

Not a bad idea, Dewangski.

I was planning on using a very small amount for the bittering addition in any case, as I am relying on the FWH to take care of most of the bitterness/flavor. According to Beersmith, the 1 oz of Cent at 60 mins only gives less than 9 IBU anyway. Will think it over, but at this point, I am leaning towards sticking w/ the cent/cascade, if for no other reason, the willamettes are still sealed.

Thanks for the reply.

waaay too complex for a session apa IMO.
Do you like beers like SNPA and Mirror Pond? They only use 2-row + Crystal.
For the hopping, using all that cascade and centennial for bittering is such a waste and arnt the best hops for bittering as they can be a bit harsh... i recommend Horizon or Magnum. they have nice smooth bitterness and its much more economical.

something like this would be awesome

95% 2-row
5% crystal

magnum @ 60
cascade & cent @ 10
cascade & cent @ 5
cascade & cent @ 0


Cheers, Jim

Jimmeh said:

waaay too complex for a session apa IMO.
Do you like beers like SNPA and Mirror Pond? They only use 2-row + Crystal.
For the hopping, using all that cascade and centennial for bittering is such a waste and arnt the best hops for bittering as they can be a bit harsh... i recommend Horizon or Magnum. they have nice smooth bitterness and its much more economical.

something like this would be awesome

95% 2-row
5% crystal

magnum @ 60
cascade & cent @ 10
cascade & cent @ 5
cascade & cent @ 0


Cheers, Jim

Click to expand...

how are cascade and centennial "harsh"? if he were to use magnum or any other hop at 60 minutes then he wouldn't be getting any flavor or aroma out of it - just bitterness at that addition. in which case, if the ibu turns out the same, how can one be more "harsh" than the other? if i drink a beer with a lone hop addition at 90 or 60 minutes i cannot tell which hop is used, all i can sense is the bitterness provided.

i wouldn't use cascade as a bittering hop, not because it is "harsh", but because it isn't economical. you can use less of something else and get the same ibu at a lower price. save cascade for a flavor/aroma addition.

Thanks for the input. I was shooting for something with a more complex malt profile than a SNPA type APA, with lots of hop character in the flavor and aroma sectors, but not terribly bitter. I prefer APAs with more crystal malts in layers, while I prefer my Am. IPA's crisper, lighter, and drier - more like the recipe you suggested, Jimmeh.

In any case, this ones in the fermenter now - brewed on Saturday. I did make a few changes to the grain bill:

Amount Item Type % or IBU
22 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain
15 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain
1 lbs Crystal Malt - 80L (60.0 SRM) Grain
2 lbs Crystal Malt - 20L (60.0 SRM) Grain
1 lbs Crystal Malt - 10L (60.0 SRM) Grain
2 lbs Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain
2 lbs Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain

Hop schedule remained unchanged from original post. I added the 0 min hops after I had recirculated through the chiller for a bit - added them when the wort had gotten down to around 180-190, then chilled into the fermenter. Did this because it takes at least 25 mins to pump through the chiller and into the fermenter. Hoping this will help to add more hop aroma then I have been getting just adding the zero min hops at flameout.

OG came out at 1.051



I have never gotten a harshness from centennial or cascade. The centennial was a pretty high AA at 11.2, which approaches any of the high AA bittering hops. The amount of hops does not seem high to me at 13 oz for 26 gallons. For bittering, I only used 1 oz of centennial at 60 min, so no wasting there! (as I was shooting for lots of late flavor and aroma)

Thanks again for the input. I will report back in a few months with tasting notes and perceptions.

krugulitis said:

how are cascade and centennial "harsh"? if he were to use magnum or any other hop at 60 minutes then he wouldn't be getting any flavor or aroma out of it - just bitterness at that addition. in which case, if the ibu turns out the same, how can one be more "harsh" than the other? if i drink a beer with a lone hop addition at 90 or 60 minutes i cannot tell which hop is used, all i can sense is the bitterness provided.

i wouldn't use cascade as a bittering hop, not because it is "harsh", but because it isn't economical. you can use less of something else and get the same ibu at a lower price. save cascade for a flavor/aroma addition.

Click to expand...

you are correct that no (or little) flavor will be imparted, just bitterness, but there is a difference in bitterness between different hops. Some, like Magnum and Horizon as suggested are smoother than others. Harsh bitterness tend to linger and coat the tongue, leaving a bitter aftertaste. Smooth bitterness dissipates and makes you want to take another sip. IIRC, it's not a function of overall AA%, but of cohumulone levels - low cohumulone = smooth bitterness, high cohumulone = harsh.

This is going to make me sound like a total newb, but what is IIRC?

Also, which hops are high or low cohumulone levels. I never really paid much attention to it before.

krugulitis said:

This is going to make me sound like a total newb, but what is IIRC?

Also, which hops are high or low cohumulone levels. I never really paid much attention to it before.

Click to expand...

not a beer term - just shorthand for "If I Recall Correctly"

as for levels in different hops, here's a good place to start - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/i...ties#Specific_hop_varieties_and_subcategories - click on a hop variety and most will list their cohumulone level.

sleepystevenson said:

1.00 oz Centennial [11.20 %] (60 min BOIL) Hops 8.7 IBU
2.00 oz Centennial [11.20 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 9.5 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [5.70 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 4.9 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [5.70 %] (5 min) Hops 1.6 IBU
2.00 oz Centennial [11.20 %] (5 min) Hops 2.9 IBU
2.00 oz Cascade [5.70 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
2.00 oz Centennial [11.20 %] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -

Click to expand...

sleepy - Isn't that 27.6 IBU rather than 41.9?


I am formulating a similar APA with 44.6 IBU for 10 gallons:

2.00 oz. Centennial 8.00% 38.2 IBU 60 min.
1.00 oz. Centennial 8.00% 3.8 IBU 10 min.
1.00 oz. Cascade 5.40% 2.6 IBU 10 min.
2.00 oz. Centennial 8.00% 0.0 IBU 0 min.
2.00 oz. Cascade 5.40% 0.0 IBU 0 min.
2.00 oz. Centennial 8.00% 0.0 IBU Dry Hop
2.00 oz. Cascade 5.40% 0.0 IBU Dry Hop

Planning to brew it between Christmas and New Years...

I like to try and get at least half of my IBU's from my 60min addition whether it's an IPA or APA. That's just me......

For all my APA's and IPA's that follow a traditional bittering hop schedule, I have always shot for 60%-75% of the total IBUs coming from the 60 min bittering addition, like Aubie said. This is my first attempt with First Wort Hopping and heavy very late addition hops. As I understand it, the FWH gives a lot of smooth hop flavor and some bitterness. I have seen many recipes that use FWH and NO bittering addition at all. I figured I would try to get at least some of the bitterness from a 60 min addition.

You're right, Michael, that does add up to 27.6 IBUs. I know I had the higher number somehow, but was tinkering around w/ the recipe while typing the original post....so...I dunno what happened there.

Fermentation has slowed down on this one now. Good steady temps at 66-68. Lots of hop character from the hydro sample before pitching the yeast. But, only time will tell.


Here's a few threads I was perusing while formulating the recipe (thanks to all the posters in these threads!):

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/all-late-hop-addition-apa-what-constitutes-late-87289/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/if-you-havent-tried-making-ipa-only-late-hops-137615/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/drowning-hops-ipa-ag-bridgeport-ipa-clone-w-first-wort-hopping-51572/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/fat-owl-pale-ale-55221/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/help-me-make-good-hoppy-beer-83076/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/first-wort-hopping-vs-late-hop-additions-55780/

I've done several beers with only 60 min, FWH, and dry hop additions. FWH in my experience, effectively replaces any 30-0 min additions.