Belgian Quad SG 1.094 to 1.010 in 1 week....how I did it...if you want to know.

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

B-Dub

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
557
Reaction score
13
Location
Central Coast
For what it's worth, I have been brewing some Belgian beers over the last year and have finally reached a point where my FG is down where I want it.

The last Quad (1.094 with 27% simple sugar by extract, not weight) got 1 minute of pure O2 though a stone, mashed at 147-149 for 90 min, built up 1 vial of yeast on a stir plate 1500mls....dump beer then 2000mls more, added yeast nutrient, fermented wlp530 at 66 deg for 2 days (with a blow off tube because it was making a huge mess) then ramped the temp up to 82 (fridge with heating pad). Some will debate the high temp, but I was going with advice from a friend who has been to Belgium and what Brew Like a Monk states some brewers temps get up to. The FG was 1.010 after 1 week.

Tasted great going to conditioning fridge where it will spend 1 month at 34 deg. Then transfer to clean keg, warm up for 2 days to 72 in warm fridge, add fresh yeast and sugar and bottle.

Belgian yeasts are not like any other yeasts I have used and need a different approach to pitching amounts and temperature. Finally have the FG down to a nice dry level, but it took me a year to figure it out and some sweet beers.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I love brewing Belgian beers. I also love the Dark Candi sugars for darker styles.

Happy Brewing,

B-Dub

I reposted this from the bottom of another thread because I thought some might like to hear what is working for me. Hope it helps.
 
do you have any off flavors from fermenting that warm or was the 2 day waiting period long enough to get the majority of fermentation done?
 
2 days was long enough at 66. It was after 48 hours that I turned the heater up in the fridge to 82. I do not know how long the 5.5 gallons took to reach 82.

Next time I might go 3 days before ramping it up. I just want to avoid unattenuated beer. My pet peeve.

Low fusel and no higher alcohols. Nice clove and spice aromas. A little bottle conditioning and aging will take this right where it needs to go.
 
Thanks for the info B-Dub. I've also ramped up some belgians that warm with no issues, though I still have higher FGs than I expect, but not sweet, just not dry.

I'm curious, do you rack out of the primary before putting in your conditioning fridge?

Also, what is the point of the double starter?
 
+1 on the temperature ramp (as discussed in Brew Like a Monk).

I've started most of my Belgians in the 64-68 range, then ramp from there. A typical ramp might be:
64 for 1 day
66 for 1 day
70 for 1 day
74 until done.

Start low to keep the higher alcohols in check, then crank 'er up to make sure it finishes dry enough. I've gotten a tripel from 1.090 to 1.010 and several big Saisons down to 1.002-4

After about 2 days, as things start to settle out, I will also pop the airlock off and swirl the carboy pretty vigorously to help re-aerate the wort. Seems to keep things going.
 
I'm curious, do you rack out of the primary before putting in your conditioning fridge?

Also, what is the point of the double starter?

Yes, I transfer off the yeast before conditioning. No need to keep all that trub and yeast around at 34 deg. Also, I can fit more kegs in my cold fridge than 5 or 6.5 gallon carboys.

The double starter builds more yeast for a larger cell count. I can add a little wort at a time until it is all in and working, or I get a mess and lose some yeast. The stir plate is new for me and I am just getting the hang of it. I am sure there are guys here who have more experience than me.

Sixbillionethans, I would caution against the addition of any O2 after fermentation starts. You could be looking at a shorter shelf life or worse. Just my 2c.

:D
 
The Belgian Strong I have in secondary started at 094 and went down to 014. I used some dark candi and some honey as well.

Also, I kept mine at 68 for about a week and then did the temp rise up to 82 for maybe 24 hours or so.

I tasted the sample as I racked and was really surprised at the almost zero fusels this young. When I planned on waiting 3 months to start drinking this batch I thought I would be waiting for the hot alcohol to fade. Apparently not.

I'm curious B-Dub what is your hop profile like on this? I went fairly low, down around 30 IBUs and I have been second guessing myself.
 
For hops I went with Syrian Goldings at 40 IBU. For now I am trying to make a Westy type and that beer is fairly bitter. BLAM lists the IBUS in the 40 range.

Next few brews I plan to come down to 30 or 35 IBU. So I think you will be in a great spot to see if you want more bitterness or if you like it the way it is.

I know what you are saying about expecting to wait before drinking. Some times you do not have to wait 3 months before these beers are great.

dontman - What yeast did you use? I find the WLP530 to be fairly finicky about finishing.
 
dontman - What yeast did you use? I find the WLP530 to be fairly finicky about finishing.

Good to hear on the hops. The big Belgians are my current favorites and I have been very excited about this particular beer.

I used EKG and Saaz.

I used WL 500.

BTW, that 82 degree ferment that I hit was an accident. I wanted to heat it just to 75 and it got away from me.
 
Thanks for the post B-Dub. I just got into homebrewing, and I'm in it mainly to brew good Belgian style beers. I have only done a few non-Belgians just to get the basics down, and I'm busy studying how to do the Belgians justice before I try one.

I have a question about your fermentation temperatures, it sounds like you are referring to air temperature when you mention your temps. I read in Brew Like a Monk that they measure the temperature of the wort. Do you have any thoughts on that? I am planning my fermentation temperature control and any thoughts on this would be appreciated, thanks.
 
510, when we refer to temps we are referring to wort temps not ambient air temps. In fact, unless otherwise noted we are always referring to wort temps when quoting fermetation temps.

This is easy to determine with stick-on carboy thermometers- "Fermometers" they are called.
 
510, when we refer to temps we are referring to wort temps not ambient air temps. In fact, unless otherwise noted we are always referring to wort temps when quoting fermetation temps.

This is easy to determine with stick-on carboy thermometers- "Fermometers" they are called.

Right on, thanks for clarifying. So when you ramp the temperatures up, you just go a little at a time and check the fermometer frequently? I have a Ranco digital thermostat and I was considering getting a thermowell probe for it. I don't want to get too complicated but I do want to brew good Belgians.
 
I really like water-based setups, and most of my friends who brew do as well. In northern states, where basements temps are cooler than fermentation temps, a Rubbermaid tub wrapped in insulation filled with water and an aquarium heater is an extremely simple, robust, relatively cheap setup. Rate of temperature ramp is dependent upon how often you're willing to turn the temp up on the heater. If you're feeling adventurous, I suppose a PLC controller and a $100 bill @ Radioshack would get you some pretty snazzy stuff, too.

Plus, with regards to ambient temp vs. wort temp vs. fermometer temp: since water has a really high heat coefficient, there is a strong chance that the temperature of the wort is pretty close (higher during fermentation) to the water temp. Unlike in air setups, where air heat convection is much more limiting.
 
I really like water-based setups, and most of my friends who brew do as well. In northern states, where basements temps are cooler than fermentation temps, a Rubbermaid tub wrapped in insulation filled with water and an aquarium heater is an extremely simple, robust, relatively cheap setup.

That sounds like a great, simple solution. Do you use anything to get the water to flow around, or does the temp stay consistent without flow?
 
+1 on the temperature ramp (as discussed in Brew Like a Monk).

I've started most of my Belgians in the 64-68 range, then ramp from there. A typical ramp might be:
64 for 1 day
66 for 1 day
70 for 1 day
74 until done.

Make that +2. This method works for me with every Belgian strain I have tried, though I prefer to pitch the Wit strain warmer. Pitching at a high rate in the mid 60's and holding for a few days avoids any fusels.
 
Check out my pictures on profile, it shows the setup I use.

I was recently curious about the temperature range, so I did check the temp in various spots (near heater, away from heater), and the delta was only like 1-2 degrees. The heater seems to turn on/off in cycles and the temp probably equalizes in the off cycles.

But I do want to preface this with one caveat: active yeasties make wort warmer. So be careful if the ambient basement temp is too close to the water temp.

Example: Basement was about 66. Fermentation target temp was 70. Active yeasties brought temperature of water bath up to 74. So there's a bit of finesse to understand your system and know what temperatures you're capable of.
 
though I prefer to pitch the Wit strain warmer

I've been slightly disappointed in my use of the 2 wit strains from Wyeast (3464 and 3944). I think it's not them, it's me. They were good, but not great. Both were slightly under-attenuated and under-carb'd from bottle conditioning. Perhaps I need to consider a higher temp...I noticed sluggish fermentations. I'll also go with more priming sugar (in my notes from last brew).
 
Just a note about fermentation control.

My buddy has fermwrap NORTHERN BREWER: Fermentation Temperature Control on one controller and heating and cooling on the fridge they are in.

I think the fermwap controller has the probe in a thermowell in the carboy.

So that might sound confusing, but he controls the air and the carboy to make sure his Belgian's ferment out all the way. He has been to Belgium on business many times on brewery related work and gets behind the scene tours.

BTW - His beers are really good!!

So I think a person needs to do what works for them to have an end result that suits their taste.
 
Check out my pictures on profile, it shows the setup I use.

Thanks for the idea Sixbillionethans. :mug:
I picked up a couple of cheap coolers that can hold a fermenter each, and a $20 200W aquarium heater for each. I love the aquarium heater, totally submersible, low temp is 65, and never actually gets hot, just warm, so I don't have to worry about melting my plastic cooler & better bottle.

I had been using an old fridge with a heater element, and it was difficult to control temps during the exothermic phase, plus I couldn't run two different temperature ramps.
 
B-Dub

I just brewed a Golden Triple this weekend. I did something new with this one. I am doing a double ferment. I kept 1/2 gallon of the finished wort aside and put it in a clean jar. After about 60 hour of fermenting at 70, last night I heated 1 1/2 lbs of candy into the reserved wort and added it to the fermenter.

Today I have been slowly raising the temp for the warm stage. 48 hours of warm followed by 7 weeks at 66.

I have high hopes for this beer. My goal FG is 1.008 (from a total OG including last night's infusion of 1.081)
 
dontman - Sounds like a good idea. Be sure to post how it worked for you.

If you are going to let it sit for 7 weeks at 66 are you going to get it off the yeast?

I am bottling my Quad after a few weeks cold. Just can't want any more! Then next week one more Quad and a Triple. Have to keep the pipeline full!
 
Yes, 3 weeks in primary, give or take a few days, the rest in secondary.

My Dark Strong has been bottled for 2 weeks now. Crystal clear in the bottle. Lovely looking beer. I will be good and wait at least 4 weeks in bottle to crack my first one although this is the first beer in recent memory that actually tasted decent to me, directly from the gravity column.

I gotta tell you. I just love playing with these temps to get the yeasties to dance. I feel like it really puts the "Artisan" in artisan beer.
 
I just wanted to give this thread a bump, as using the tub fermenters with aquarium heaters has made huge difference in all of my beers, especially the Belgian styles.
I'd previously been using a temperature controlled fridge (heating element tied to a fixed air temperature controller). Using this setup, the temp of fermenting beers often exceeded my target temps, and the beers needed a longer conditioning period to get rid of off flavors and harsh alcohols in higher gravity brews.
Now, using the controlled environment, my beers attenuate to the desired level, and need less conditioning time. As an added benefit, I can use the fridge just to condition beers after fermenting, and I can fit 5 cornys in there, versus 3 fermenters.
Thanks again Sixbillionethans :mug:
 
That's great, but do you know why? Without the why, did anyone in this thread learn anything but wrote memory? :drunk:

I don't mean to go on a tirade or anything, but I've read a lot of threads tonight and all of them seem to be... well I did X and Y happened. I have no idea why it happened and I probably can't repeat it but it did! What good does that do anyone?
 
B-Dub

I just brewed a Golden Triple this weekend. I did something new with this one. I am doing a double ferment. I kept 1/2 gallon of the finished wort aside and put it in a clean jar. After about 60 hour of fermenting at 70, last night I heated 1 1/2 lbs of candy into the reserved wort and added it to the fermenter.

Today I have been slowly raising the temp for the warm stage. 48 hours of warm followed by 7 weeks at 66.

I have high hopes for this beer. My goal FG is 1.008 (from a total OG including last night's infusion of 1.081)

dontman - Sounds like a good idea. Be sure to post how it worked for you.

If you are going to let it sit for 7 weeks at 66 are you going to get it off the yeast?

I am bottling my Quad after a few weeks cold. Just can't want any more! Then next week one more Quad and a Triple. Have to keep the pipeline full!


B-Dub. As you requested I am posting back with results.

Holy frijoles Batman! This is by far the best Belgian I have made. And I am a big fan of most of my Belgians.

It fermented down to 1.010 which was my target and prediction. At four weeks in bottle, no fusels, just a hint of alcohol warmth. Perfect level of ester and the fruit qualities balance perfectly with the malt and hops.

Question to anyone who knows: from what brewery does the WL500 (Trappist) derive? (This is what I used.)
 
No time to dive further.

Dontman, WLP500 is Chimay.

Glad to hear your beer turned out so well. I just had a Triple, Quad, Saison and Dark Saison.

Time for some water@!
 
For what it's worth, I have been brewing some Belgian beers over the last year and have finally reached a point where my FG is down where I want it.

The last Quad (1.094 with 27% simple sugar by extract, not weight) got 1 minute of pure O2 though a stone, mashed at 147-149 for 90 min, built up 1 vial of yeast on a stir plate 1500mls....dump beer then 2000mls more, added yeast nutrient, fermented wlp530 at 66 deg for 2 days (with a blow off tube because it was making a huge mess) then ramped the temp up to 82 (fridge with heating pad). Some will debate the high temp, but I was going with advice from a friend who has been to Belgium and what Brew Like a Monk states some brewers temps get up to. The FG was 1.010 after 1 week.

Tasted great going to conditioning fridge where it will spend 1 month at 34 deg. Then transfer to clean keg, warm up for 2 days to 72 in warm fridge, add fresh yeast and sugar and bottle.

Belgian yeasts are not like any other yeasts I have used and need a different approach to pitching amounts and temperature. Finally have the FG down to a nice dry level, but it took me a year to figure it out and some sweet beers.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I love brewing Belgian beers. I also love the Dark Candi sugars for darker styles.

Happy Brewing,

B-Dub

I reposted this from the bottom of another thread because I thought some might like to hear what is working for me. Hope it helps.


Hell yeah man!!! That's rockin!!:rockin: How you doin?
 
That's great, but do you know why? Without the why, did anyone in this thread learn anything but wrote memory? :drunk:

I don't mean to go on a tirade or anything, but I've read a lot of threads tonight and all of them seem to be... well I did X and Y happened. I have no idea why it happened and I probably can't repeat it but it did! What good does that do anyone?

I made my fermenting temp control better, and got better beer as a result by making the yeast environment less stressful. I can and do repeat it.

Have you considered relaxing with a refreshing homebrew? :mug:
 
I hope everyone here knows the why for what we collectively do as brewers. If you have any specific questions, please ask and I will try and let you know why I did something.

The problem with having a reproducible result is the 30 gallons of Belgian beer waiting for me to bottle!

Away for class this week and will be in and out, but if I can help any one make better Belgian beer with the little knowledge I have, please post your question.

Have a good beer for me this week!:D
 
Have you considered relaxing with a refreshing homebrew? :mug:

I was thinking the same thing. That, or maybe a prescription for Paxil, or maybe a colorectalentomectomy, because it really can't be good for one's health to have a bug of that size up one's rectum.
 
Dontman,

Nice work with the Chimay yeast! I am working my way over that way from the Westmalle yeast.

Ever try the WLP550 Achouffe?

I look at http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm for the yeast strains. I didn't look in BLAM, but I bet the chart is right.
 
A few comments on this thread, especially since I just brewed up another big Belgian beer...

First, I did the temp ramp thing with my first Belgian and it still came out sweet. It was my third beer and first with a starter. Almost a year later I know a lot more now and since that beer was just about gone, it was time to brew it again...but AG this time and using things I had learned.

Second, build a stir plate, it really works well. I think it is also a good idea to build a nice big starter for a 1.080+ beer like some of these Belgians are. This time I did 1/3 gallon with 1.3 cups DME for 24 hours. Then I added 2/3 a gallon with 2.6 cups DME in it and let that go for 36 more hours. This is a lot of starter so definitely put it in fridge for awhile and decant that liquid off before pitching. Documented it here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/my-belgian-strong-ale-wyeast-1388-yeast-starter-99589/

Third, I am using a Johnson controller with a fermwrap heater to control temps in winter. I also built a Son of Fermentation Chamber (documented here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/smaller-son-fermentation-chiller-79556/) to cool things down during the summer. I ferment in the fermentation chamber, even in winter, so the heater will not have to run as often. I don't think you need a thermowell, just tape a chunk of neoprene from a mousepad or something to the side of the carboy and then stick the probe from the controller between that and the glass. Works very well.

Fourth, dontman, I think you are being a little hard on z987k. He did kind of vent in this thread, but I must admit...there is a lot of "do it this way just because" here. I have seen it on just about any forum, these trends start and then new people start telling even newer people to do something but they have no idea why they do it or even if they should do it. They just read it and then do it without understanding. Nothing wrong with really trying to understand why you should do something rather than blindly following along. Then again, it is probably better to ask rather than rant. :)
 
To your last paragraph. I agree that I was little hard but in a sort of friendly way. Meaning I would say that same thing to him at a bar over a beer with a smile on my face. Yes there is a lot of I did this and this happened. But this is good. It becomes incumbent upon the curious to probe with a question about a statement.

The fact is that I know a lot about making beers. I know a whole lot about about making Belgians. I will often make a statement like "i pitched at 76 and ramped to 82 over 48 hours." If you want to know why ask me why. Don't call me an asshat for not telling you in the first place.

On the other side of this When B-Dub tells me his methodology for achieving his profile I don't need him to write a four page annotated thesis with footnotes on the physics and chemistry behind the steps. He can tell me his ferment profile in a few keywords and I am good to go to try to duplicate. The thing is he does not need to tell me why he did anything because I know why he does them.

The rant by z was useless because even with the rant their still was no question asked. "Why what?" It was a grumpy mumbling and we have a whole forum for those.

Plus this is one of my favorite threads because it is a high level thread discussing hard to do right beers. The discussions are relevent and for the majority of us involved in this discussions they provide all of the how and whys of each item to which we refer.
 
Dontman,

Nice work with the Chimay yeast! I am working my way over that way from the Westmalle yeast.

Ever try the WLP550 Achouffe?

I look at Yeast Strains for the yeast strains. I didn't look in BLAM, but I bet the chart is right.

This is funny because I basically did Westmalle's recipe for their Golden with this one but I did it with the 500 and when I opened it I was drinking an immediately identifiable Chimay

I'm doing a Belgian Pale so that I can have a keg that I want to serve on tap. I did it as well with the 500 and I am keeping the profile on the more flat side with this 4 days at 72 2 days 74 17 at 68. I am keeping this low profile with just some plum nose working. Not enough ester to banana this up at all.

I also bought a couple pounds of Styrian Goldings.

My Saison is in the bottle and will be a barn burner. Just from the gravity column I was getting pepper, cardomom, orange, plum. My goal is to give Brasserie du Blaugies a run for their money with this one (even though I am using a DuPont strain,)
 
if I can help any one make better Belgian beer with the little knowledge I have, please post your question.

very much appreciate the offer!

I'm new to brewing (extract/steeping grains) but am working on trying to "perfect" (to my taste) a Belgian Dark Strong Ale...

one of the issues I had was the beers finished too dry (according to more experienced homebrewers)...like 1.008 (from 1.075) and 1.007 (from 1.074). On the one "monster" brew, I ended at 1.014 (from 1.103)

also...what types/amounts of steeping grains are most appropriate for this style? I hear it's pretty easy to over-do the steeping grains.

thanks!
 
Hello from Medford, MA
and thanks for the awesome thread. A Belgian question:
I just brewed my second AG on Monday, and from now on I am going to make a starter (haven't made one yet)... I made a tripel OG 1.082
and pitched 3 vials of WL530 and it isn't fermenting; my pitching temp was 68 and my fermometer (the strip on the 6.5 g carboy, right?) has been hovering between 67 and 70. I added some yeast energizer today and was going to try another tube of 530.
Do I aerate again?
Should I put the carboy by the radiator or will that fusel me?
Would you add a fourth tube or would that be overpitching?

Thanks.
 
Don't do anything more. Don't reaerate!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your yeast is busy using up the oxygen that is already in suspension. Just because you don't see visible signs does not mean that there is not a bunch of activity going on.

Relax you are fine.

That thing is going to blowoff huge when it starts. I hope you have a blowoff rig ready.

Once the krausen gets going let it sit for 24-48 hours then start raising the temp up to the upper 70's and let that hang out for few days. Then let the temp fall naturally. I like mid 60s for the resting period.
 
Thanks. You are right on the money. It is really going now and I am getting the blowoff set up.
So from now on I should do a starter, right? When you do that, what temp should I start my tripels?
Once it gets warmer in Massachusetts, I'll ask about saisons...which I love but can never ferment fully (attenuate fully).
I was going to buy that $130 temp control thing on Northern brewer, where the cord dangles in the wort, and you control the heating wrap digitally...
is that the preferred way to control Belgian fermentations?
Thanks again
 
I use a $20 immersion aquarium heater in a $12 beer cooler filled with water (swamp cooler) Works great during the cold months. A couple ice bottles in the warm months.

Yes, either do a starter or work from washed yeast.
 
Back
Top