Is fermenting too warm really that bad?

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Thanks! I used the term "weiss bier" to connote Bavarian wheat beers.

When in Berlin, I ordered a "weiss bier", and they looked at me funny. I corrected it to Hefe-Weizen, and they were happy :)
 
Just found out that the thermo strip on my fermenter says 78 degrees. I guess this beer is doomed and it really pisses me off. Maybe I'll get lucky but I don't think so since it's 8 degrees above max temp for the yeast.
 
On the aging, I don't think you'll have much success. My last batch aged 6 months and tasted just as terrible as the day it finished priming. YMMV.

This is the exact reason I don't ever recommend Notty to anybody that doesn't have their temps under good control.
 
BansheeRider said:
Just found out that the thermo strip on my fermenter says 78 degrees. I guess this beer is doomed and it really pisses me off. Maybe I'll get lucky but I don't think so since it's 8 degrees above max temp for the yeast.
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Let it ferment out and see. A warmer temp like this is going to increase the esters, but as you said in an earlier post in this thread, you thought that might be good with the English style you are brewing. No harm in letting it finish fermenting and then smell/taste it. If its hideous and you just want to be done with it, you can toss it then. But you might find its not as bad as all that.

Take a look at https://www.cool-brewing.com/ as a possible low-cost solution to your fermentation temp problem. These guys sent me one of their coolers for a prize in a homebrew competition and its slick. I think you could leave it for a couple of days without problems.
 
Pappers_ said:
Let it ferment out and see. A warmer temp like this is going to increase the esters, but as you said in an earlier post in this thread, you thought that might be good with the English style you are brewing. No harm in letting it finish fermenting and then smell/taste it. If its hideous and you just want to be done with it, you can toss it then. But you might find its not as bad as all that.

Take a look at https://www.cool-brewing.com/ as a possible low-cost solution to your fermentation temp problem. These guys sent me one of their coolers for a prize in a homebrew competition and its slick. I think you could leave it for a couple of days without problems.
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Yeah I hope it works out. Thanks for the link. That swamp cooler looks awesome but a bit out of my price range for now. A friend of mine suggested filtering this brew before kegging. I told him that probably wont fix the flavor but I guess its worth a try. What about pitching more yeast after about a week to see if that'll clean up the off flavors?
 
Filtering will remove a yeast flavor from an unsettled brew, but it won't pull out esters. Pitching more yeast may exacerbate the problem by give overpitch flavors if it hasn't fermented out all the way at this point anyway.

You might be able to mask the taste a bit with dry hopping or randalizing. I don't think it would be to-style, but hey, what the hell.
 
thadius856 said:
Filtering will remove a yeast flavor from an unsettled brew, but it won't pull out esters. Pitching more yeast may exacerbate the problem by give overpitch flavors if it hasn't fermented out all the way at this point anyway.

You might be able to mask the taste a bit with dry hopping or randalizing. I don't think it would be to-style, but hey, what the hell.
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I thought about dry hoping but like you said it's not the style for this porter. I may end up drinking this anyways and just keeping it away from my friends. I would hate to waste $40 on a bad batch.
 
I'm afraid this one is going to turn out rather badly.

IMO, if you can't keep your ferment temps (measured on the side of the bucket, NOT ambient) consistently below 68*F, don't use Nottingham at all, ever.

Personally, I like it, but I can precisely control the temp and run it at 55-57*F for the first week, slowly bring it into the low 60's and only let it see 68* for a couple of days before bottling.
 
BigFloyd said:
I'm afraid this one is going to turn out rather badly.

IMO, if you can't keep your ferment temps (measured on the side of the bucket, NOT ambient) consistently below 68*F, don't use Nottingham at all, ever.

Personally, I like it, but I can precisely control the temp and run it at 55-57*F for the first week, slowly bring it into the low 60's and only let it see 68* for a couple of days before bottling.
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You use the swamp cooler method? My problem is that I work two days on and two days off and every other weekend. I think I will only brew on weekends I have off so I can monitor the temps.
 
BansheeRider said:
Yeah I hope it works out. Thanks for the link. That swamp cooler looks awesome but a bit out of my price range for now. A friend of mine suggested filtering this brew before kegging. I told him that probably wont fix the flavor but I guess its worth a try. What about pitching more yeast after about a week to see if that'll clean up the off flavors?
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In my experience, the more I tried to "fix" my mistake beers, the worse they became. I'd say it is what it is at this stage. Filtering or repitching will not help. Imo, dry hopping a porter isn't appealing. A Randall might or might not mask some off flavors. I doubt I'd make the effort. I'd chalk it up as a lesson learned and try not to repeat it.
 
Too cool is FAR preferable to too warm. In a beer where you are going for "fruity esters" I think temp control should be tried and true. For everything else, too cool is far better. In the tub, tshirt over the fermenter soaking up water, fan (outside the tub) will keep it cool. It won't act as a wort chiller, but if you chill to 65F, it will keep fermenting wort under 70 if your house is not over 75F.
 
BansheeRider said:
You use the swamp cooler method? My problem is that I work two days on and two days off and every other weekend. I think I will only brew on weekends I have off so I can monitor the temps.
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No, mi amigo.

I use a freezer (bought on Craigslist) regulated by an STC-1000 dual-temperature controller. I have a "DIY paint can fermenter heater" as a heat source (placed inside the freezer) if needed.

The whole setup cost me right at $100. It keeps my fermentation temp +/-0.5*C of whatever I set it for. Best $100 I've ever spent on brewing equipment.
 
The only thing I can think of that breaks down esters and fusels is Brett...

How opposed are you to aging it for another year?
 
Ok, I read the first and last page.Yes, fermenting that high can ruin your beer. And Nottingham is just the stuff to use to make it happen. Anything over 70 is dangerous, and over 75 you are looking at an ester profile that is just gross, like rotten apricots. It is a really easy thing to put the carboy into an ice chest full of cold water. I hope this batch turns out ok, but the hopes aren't high. It will probably be fine with significant aging.
 
Your best bet to find out if the beer went bad is to ride it out. Unless you're hard pressed for fermentor space, there's no downside to this. Since I think you mentioned you're kegging, there's not even the demoralizing effort of bottling to contend with. Keg it, carb it, and if it's awful, dump it.

If you live somewhere that your temps may get that high and you aren't content brewing exclusively in the winter, do yourself a huge favor and find a way to invest a couple hundred bucks in a temperature regulated freezer. Someone above described how to do it for about $100. If you prefer new, wait for a sale on a chest freezer at Menard's or Home Depot and you can do it for $200 total (freezer + heater + STC-1000 and associated hardware). You will never have to worry about this sort of thing again.
 
zeg said:
Your best bet to find out if the beer went bad is to ride it out. Unless you're hard pressed for fermentor space, there's no downside to this. Since I think you mentioned you're kegging, there's not even the demoralizing effort of bottling to contend with. Keg it, carb it, and if it's awful, dump it.
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Or if you have the extra keg space, burp out the air w/ CO2 and set that keg aside for 6+ months before sampling it. I've had a cream ale that a friend made that was delicious at 18 months in the keg. At one month, and later at 6 months, it was undrinkable (tasted like a barnyard).


zeg said:
If you live somewhere that your temps may get that high and you aren't content brewing exclusively in the winter, do yourself a huge favor and find a way to invest a couple hundred bucks in a temperature regulated freezer. Someone above described how to do it for about $100. If you prefer new, wait for a sale on a chest freezer at Menard's or Home Depot and you can do it for $200 total (freezer + heater + STC-1000 and associated hardware). You will never have to worry about this sort of thing again.
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Unless you are one of those rare folks who has a basement that stays at 60*F all of the time, and you have the space for this sort of setup, it really pays to make it a part of your brewing equipment. IMO, if you face temperature challenges, this should be higher on the "gear list" than lots of other brew gadgets and such. It will get you much farther along the road to making better brew.

The friend who made the "barnyard cream ale" told me that when he later got a freezer/controller, it caused much more of an improvement in the quality of his brews than anything else, including going to all-grain.
 
BigFloyd said:
Unless you are one of those rare folks who has a basement that stays at 60*F all of the time, and you have the space for this sort of setup, it really pays to make it a part of your brewing equipment. IMO, if you face temperature challenges, this should be higher on the "gear list" than lots of other brew gadgets and such. It will get you much farther along the road to making better brew.
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Yes. I spent most of a year winging it. My first beer was in january in an unplugged fridge in the garage. Keeping it up above 55°F for the Nottingham was a challenge that involved a lot of hot water bottles. The spring was relatively easy because temperatures in the house or garage were naturally acceptable. Over the summer, I tried to get by controlling a fridge by frobbing an outlet timer. It worked, but it was nervewracking and required twice daily checks and a reliable forecast. I finally dropped the $60 for an STC-1000 box and heater when it came time to try some lagers, and I don't know what I was thinking all that time.

Like an autosiphon and an immersion chiller, it's one of those things that didn't seem to be worth it until I saw how much easier things were with it. I'm starting to think about an O2 stone and possibly putting a ball valve on my brew kettle now (it's only 5 gallons, so borderline worth it, but it would simplify brew day pretty substantially).
 
so how did this turn out? I have a brown ale with Notty, my basement is warmer than usual right now, I am doing the swamp cooler method and it still hit 72 once (perhaps overnight), I hope it's OK.
 
Bleedsblue said:
So how long do you have to worry about temp?
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Depends on fermentation, but the first day or 2 are CRITICAL. Initial cooling is far more important than any steps beyond that.

If you only chill to 75 and pitch, nothing will bring it down far enough before fermentation begins and takes the temp up.
 
The reason I ask is that I am planning a blackberry and orange hef. We leave for vacation for a week, but if I get it brewed friday it will have 13 days in before we leave, but only 3 days with black berryberries being added in at 10 days. So not sure what to do.
 
Bleedsblue said:
The reason I ask is that I am planning a blackberry and orange hef. We leave for vacation for a week, but if I get it brewed friday it will have 13 days in before we leave, but only 3 days with black berryberries being added in at 10 days. So not sure what to do.
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the berries will probably start a small fermentation, but that shouldn't be a problem.

As long as it doesn't hit 75 or higher after fermentation it should be
ok.
 
cheezydemon3 said:
Depends on fermentation, but the first day or 2 are CRITICAL. Initial cooling is far more important than any steps beyond that.

If you only chill to 75 and pitch, nothing will bring it down far enough before fermentation begins and takes the temp up.
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Disagree with the 2nd half of the above. If cheezy is referring to swamp coolers only, I have misconstrued the post.

However, I routinely pitch around 77 degrees, and it's down to mid/low 60's within a couple hours using a freezer and STC-1000. (Probe taped to outside of bucket, so maybe a bit of stratification-- but good enough for me)
 
Pitching high & making the temp drop to low 60's in only a couple hours,it's a wonder it doesn't go dormant. It's better for the yeast to pitch low & let it rise slowly,or hold it low than the other way around.
 
unionrdr said:
Pitching high & making the temp drop to low 60's in only a couple hours,it's a wonder it doesn't go dormant. It's better for the yeast to pitch low & let it rise slowly,or hold it low than the other way around.
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Gotcha. I get impatient with my chill time, and just pitch when the kettle feels cool to the touch.

There's lots of things I don't do 100% by the book with brewing, because it's a hobby and the extra effort would take some of the fun out of it. 99% of the time I'm the only one drinking my beer, and I'm happy with the final product so I don't expend any more effort than necessary.

I didn't mean to come off like pitching high and cooling was "the right way to do it", only that I do it on a regular basis and know it can be done.
 
naga77777 said:
Gotcha. I get impatient with my chill time, and just pitch when the kettle feels cool to the touch.

There's lots of things I don't do 100% by the book with brewing, because it's a hobby and the extra effort would take some of the fun out of it. 99% of the time I'm the only one drinking my beer, and I'm happy with the final product so I don't expend any more effort than necessary.

I didn't mean to come off like pitching high and cooling was "the right way to do it", only that I do it on a regular basis and know it can be done.
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What can be done and what's a good home brewing practice may be very different. IMO, being nonchalant about temps (pitching or fermenting) when you have the tools (like a thermometer and a nice STC-1000 fermenter chamber) to do it right is like doing woodwork without bothering to use a measuring tape and a square.

Temperatures are what I pay the most careful attention to. It doesn't take extraordinary effort and it pays off big dividends. For me, part of the enjoyment of the brewing hobby is crafting something that compares favorably to good store-bought craft beer and which I'm happy to share with friends/fellow brewers.
 
Warm = Bad

Cool = Good

Period!

Jokes aside, I like to ferment on the low end of the yeasts range. I chill down to 1-2 degrees below my fermentation temp with my IC then aerate and pitch. I then stick the fermenter in my ferm chamber and never touch it again until I package. I've played around with gradually rising the temp toward the tail end of primary, but I don't notice any real gain from that. In my experience if you aerate good, pitch enough yeast, and don't ferment too cold the yeast will finish the job just fine.
 
naga77777 said:
Disagree with the 2nd half of the above. If cheezy is referring to swamp coolers only, I have misconstrued the post.

However, I routinely pitch around 77 degrees, and it's down to mid/low 60's within a couple hours using a freezer and STC-1000. (Probe taped to outside of bucket, so maybe a bit of stratification-- but good enough for me)
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What are you pitching? My yeast starter or even hydrated yeast takes off quick.

Active yeast in 77F wort, stuck in my chest freezer set at 5F got down to 75 and stayed there for several hours and absolutely after fermentation had started.
5 degrees Farenheit....... Effing freezing. Unless you fill the thing with glycol, it aint gonna work like that.

Methinks your thermometer taped to the side isn't getting the true story.
 
cheezydemon3 said:
What are you pitching? My yeast starter or even hydrated yeast takes off quick.

Active yeast in 77F wort, stuck in my chest freezer set at 5F got down to 75 and stayed there for several hours and absolutely after fermentation had started.
5 degrees Farenheit....... Effing freezing. Unless you fill the thing with glycol, it aint gonna work like that.

Methinks your thermometer taped to the side isn't getting the true story.
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Pitching Notty, usually trub from mason jars in the fridge.

I have theorized that the outer wort will get colder, quicker, and the middle of the wort will be a bit warmer. But since active fermentation stirs everything around pretty good, it equalizes quickly enough for me.

BigFloyd said:

What can be done and what's a good home brewing practice may be very different. IMO, being nonchalant about temps (pitching or fermenting) when you have the tools (like a thermometer and a nice STC-1000 fermenter chamber) to do it right is like doing woodwork without bothering to use a measuring tape and a square.

Temperatures are what I pay the most careful attention to. It doesn't take extraordinary effort and it pays off big dividends. For me, part of the enjoyment of the brewing hobby is crafting something that compares favorably to good store-bought craft beer and which I'm happy to share with friends/fellow brewers.
Click to expand...

Good analogy, but I Dont see it that way. Woodworking without measuring would certainly result in an inferior product, noticeably different from its intended dimensions/shape.

My nonchalant attitude towards variance of a few degrees in pitching temps, and yeast for that matter (never make starters, just approximate amount of trub for the gravity) has no noticeable ill effects on the finished product according to its number one consumer -- Me :p. The two-hearted clone keg that just kicked could a fooled me, but I'll admit I have an unsophisticated palate.

The analogy that comes to mind with my practices is this:

Sure, its better to purchase full-synthetic oil, and a $30 dollar filter to put on my car, but it's not a Mercedes and good 'ol Dino oil with a $7 Bosch works just as well.


Please, nobody take what I do as "the proper way", as stated in the earlier post. If y'all are going at it 110%, and brew stuff that rivals any commercial craft brew, Good on ya! I'd love to try one sometime.

For me though, I'm happy with what I'm producing and see no need to fix what ain't broken :mug:
 
naga77777 said:
P

My nonchalant attitude towards temps, and yeast for that matter (never make starters, just approximate amount of trub for the gravity) has no ill effects on the finished product according to its number one consumer -- Me :p. I've noticed no off flavors or lacking qualities in my beer.
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And that's the key- if you're happy with the finished beer that is all that really matters.

For my taste, nottingham over 70 degrees tastes foul, so I use other yeast strains if I have to pitch warmer than 66 degrees. But that's for MY taste. I normally pitch at 62-64 degrees and then let the beer rise naturally to 66 degrees for fermentation.

Some people have much different perceptions of taste than I do, so we all need to make beer that we love.
 
I too am firmly in the pitch low and let rise camp.

Yeast are quickly going to get overactive in hot wort and start producing even more heat than normal. If you do manage to force the temp lower while the yeast are in full swing you'll probably cause them to go dormant for a bit. Now you're in this yo-yo game of yeast activity. I'm not sure if starting and stopping fermentation has negative effects on the flavor or not but it seems a lot less controlled and consistent.

If you pitch low the yeast already weren't active (unless your starter still had krausen) so the gradual warming will gently wake them up and they will smoothly transition right into activity in an environment that was never too hot, so the temp increase will be pretty linear and then level off right where you want it. Easy to repeat if done correctly.

If I didn't manage to cool my wort enough before transferring to the fermentor I don't sweat it a bit. I let the chest freezer bring it down over the next few hours and I pitch when it's where I want it. I use pure O2 and I don't aerate until it's at temp.
 
What about Belgian or Bavarian yeast? I'm about to make a hefe with a Bavarian strain, and really like the banana flavor over the clove flavor that some of these exhibit. I've heard higher temps contribute to more banana than clove- what temp should I target for a mid to high banana and low clove taste?
 
naga77777 said:
My nonchalant attitude towards variance of a few degrees in pitching temps, and yeast for that matter (never make starters, just approximate amount of trub for the gravity) has no noticeable ill effects on the finished product according to its number one consumer -- Me :p. The two-hearted clone keg that just kicked could a fooled me, but I'll admit I have an unsophisticated palate.
Click to expand...

Yooper said:
And that's the key- if you're happy with the finished beer that is all that really matters.

For my taste, nottingham over 70 degrees tastes foul, so I use other yeast strains if I have to pitch warmer than 66 degrees. But that's for MY taste. I normally pitch at 62-64 degrees and then let the beer rise naturally to 66 degrees for fermentation.

Some people have much different perceptions of taste than I do, so we all need to make beer that we love.
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's all about brewing what's good for you. And for me a few degrees can make a big difference. The first couple years I was brewing I made a lot of pale ales and IPA's with WL001 and I just couldn't seem to get it right - there was always this character to the beer that I couldn't place but didn't like, even though my friends thought the beers were great. I was fermenting around 71* as that's in the middle of the White Labs published range. Then I read a quote from Vinny Cilurzo on chico yeast fermenting over 68* spitting out diacetyl, I realized that is exactly what I was tasting. Now I always ferment mid to low 60's and the beers taste so much better to me.
:mug:
 

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