dual vessel system

I have been looking to build a single tier system to put in my garage. For that reason I have been focusing on an electric system. I also think it can be pretty efficient. After some research, and trying to keep it as efficient as possible, can a two keggle system match a standard three vessel system.

I am trying to make it pretty simple so I can brew behind my bar while enjoying the time with my friends. I have been brewing with a simple pot on the oven system for a few batches and I am looking to start building my system. Just finishing up the bar now, so I am hoping to get it done before this summer. Any help from the highly experienced brewers here would be helpful.

I am looking to possibly automate it completely... except the grain and hops dumps. Not sure how possible that is, but we will see right? I think the automation will be a work in progress, but if possible i would like to purchase equipment now that will work with the automation later.

Does this seem like it will work out or am I completely missing something?

1. Measure out strike water in HTL and heat to strike temperature
2. Add weighted grain to MLT
3. Dough in using strike water
4. Circlulate water through HERMS to maintain temperature
5. Turn off temperature and drain water out of HLT
6.Transfer wort to HLT or "Brew Kettle"
7. Heat to boil
8. Add hops at designated time periods
9. Clean grain out of MLT
10. Add water to MLT and align valves for HERMS
11. At final hops addition add ice to MLT
12. After boil is complete, turn of heating element and recirculate icy water using HERMS
13. Once the wort cools, rack to fermenter
14. Once wort is safely enclosed with airlock, clean both vessels and rinse.

Sticking to only two vessel's will limit your sparging options, because the HLT has to be empty, before you can starting running off from MLT to BK. You can get better efficiency with multiple batch sparge or fly sparging, but that requires three vessels.

Been fly sparring with a two vessel system for about twenty batches now. Works just fine. I can do up to ten gallons of a 1.050 wort. My HLT / kettle is 15 gallons and my MLT is a Coleman cooler

giligson said:

Been fly sparring with a two vessel system for about twenty batches now. Works just fine. I can do up to ten gallons of a 1.050 wort. My HLT / kettle is 15 gallons and my MLT is a Coleman cooler

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Can you tell us how exaclty? Brutus 2.0 style?

From you picture in the first post it looks like you have a pump with the inlet coming from your faucet? if this is true there is no need for the pump (unless you have very shocking water pressure )
I have been thinking a bit about 2 vessle systems lately (no actual plans to build one yet though) and my thoughts have been around a RIMS setup with the RIMS tube being feed from either the MT or the cold supply to give on demand "hot" water. Should be able to get enough out for a fly sparge.

I would be interested as well, I thought that was something I would have to give up. It would still be a far step above my current pot on stove system. But I am really looking to get the process out of my kitchen and into my garage where I have my bar almost complete. Also, some major savings for now in parts if i can keep it to one keggle.
Any information on automation? That is what I really need hints on...

BeechtreeBrewery said:

I would be interested as well, I thought that was something I would have to give up. It would still be a far step above my current pot on stove system. But I am really looking to get the process out of my kitchen and into my garage where I have my bar almost complete. Also, some major savings for now in parts if i can keep it to one keggle.
Any information on automation? That is what I really need hints on...

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Do a google serch for brutus 2.0, from memory it was set up to recirc the sparge water from the HLT/BK through the mash back into the HLT/BK, over and over and over and...
For automation look up Brewtroller or BCS, some examples are on hte forums here.

you also may want to use your second pump to recirculate the wort in the brew kettle as it is cooling. Basically, run the wort back across the herms coil to cool faster and whirlpool the wort.

Even with the brewtroller, there is super limited support, and you are kind of on your own as far as how you want to fabricate it. I am starting to like my 2 vessel, although there are challenges. I am still trying to figure out a way to get some more of those sugars left behind with the lack of a true sparge( and only 2 vessels), I just don't see a way it is possible..

rabeb25 said:

I am still trying to figure out a way to get some more of those sugars left behind with the lack of a true sparge( and only 2 vessels), I just don't see a way it is possible..

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You can fly sparge without the 3rd vessel. I have a MT, a BK, 1 pump and a RIMS tube. They are 55g blichs. Chilling with a plate chiller. I run tap water straight through the RIMS tube during the sparge (it is a double tube with a 3.5k and a 6k element) and onto the grainbed. I can sparge at proper temp, and drain 46g in the Bk within an hour. I drain the MT into the BK with the pump. Yesterday I got 87% efficiency on a 1.060 beer.
There are lots of ways to set up a 2 vessel system. You can even do it with HERMS if you set up a cross-sparge (Brutus-20 style).

I like my two vessle system because I can break it down, clean it, put it away and use my garage for other things.
Basically:


Materials
One large kettle with SS spigot attached to a high temp reinforced vinyl tubing with a "showerhead" sparger (home built from copper pipe). TOP LEVEL

One Coleman cooler with SS braid (water heater line - it has a larger diameter than washing machine line). The braid has an internal SS wire spring that keeps it from collapsing. MID LEVEL

One 70 000 BTU burner and stand.

Collecting buckets. LOW LEVEL

Procedure:

Fill Kettle with total water for brewday and heat to strike temp (can do single infusion or multi infusion)

Dough in with water at temp with grain in the Coleman cooler. Have some calibrated SS buckets that I measure the volume of water with and transfer to the cooler (alternatively you could mark your cooler and use the spigot and hose on the kettle to transfer.

Heat water in kettle to sparge temp.

After the mash and you are collecting runnings wait until the level of the wort in the cooler is where you wish to sparge. I lay aluminum foil on the grainbed to avoid disturbing where the sparge stream will hit.

Sparge while collecting wort into whatever containers are handy (not too much into each bucket because you will have to lift these to the level of the kettle by hand).

I use a block to help "tip up" the kettle and get the last of the sparge water to the spigot.

Once the sparge water is gone you can start lifting the wort up and dumping into the kettle (CLOSE THE SPIGOT)

Hope that brief description is clear.

PS Coleman coolers are OK at holding temp as is but they have no insulation in the lid. If you put an old coat or blanket etc on the lid you can hold temps well for a 75min mash even in the winter.

I have the two kegs I will be using as brewing vessels. I am planning on working on this a bit this long weekend. I am looking towards a two vessel, two pump system with only the HLT/BK will be temperature controlled. I am looking to put 5500 W/240V element in the keggle, but I am trying to figure out the best control system. I have looked into the Auber PID temperature controller, but I am looking to possibly go to a computer automated system. If possible I am looking to be able to control the system from an Iphone/Ipad.

Anyone running systems like this? What automation systems are you using. I am looking to use 4 three way valves and 2 ball valves to control the system. I have the computers, I have not worked with control systems.

Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!

I've been brewing for a while with my 2 vessel system, no issues. I think most of us 2 vessel people have come to the same conclusion, why have 3 when 2 works so well? Also, if you use a bit of gravity you only need one pump. Search attobrew on this forum and you'll see my setup.

So far I have zero complaints with my system. Easy to use, easy to clean, small footprint, cheap to build, fun to use, and of course great beer.

Another important aspect of my two height two tier is that it is a HERMS with the coil in the BK. The bonus of this is that you not only get your MT temp control, but you also get your BK cooling at the end of the boil. A setup like mine easily controls the MT within a degree and can cool 5-6 gallons of boiling wort to 65-70 F in about 15 minutes. I just use tap water and a couple bags of ice (or snow if it is winter).

The "simple brewery" by Boerderij Kabouter and of course the CB20 are both great examples of this.

Something else to consider:

Make it a "lowered 2 tier"....lower the BK a bit, and have your MLT above and behind the BK.
Make a tippy dump for the MLT.
Then use only one pump.
The MLT will gravity drain right into the BK, and your pump will return the fluid to the top.
Move the coil to the MLT. When you recirc wort from the MLT to the BK, the element in the BK will heat the wort. The coil will instead be used for chilling.
Boil as usual, when finished, start recircing through the coil that is in the MLT. You will have since emptied and cleaned the grain out, and add a bunch of ice. It'll work like an inside out IC. If you don't like this method, just use an external chiller like a plate or CFC.


It works quite well; your brewery is more efficient, easier to automate, and less trouble screwing with pumps. The pump would always be primed, no swapping of hoses. The MLT would be at the perfect height for dumping, and spraying out the grain that will get stuck in your HERMS coil.

If you want to go for the bonus round, consider adding a high powered RIMS tube (see the Unibrew link in my sig). Water pressure will drive the fluid up (no pump needed)....and you get hot sparge water to drop on top of the grain.

Just a few ideas since you're still in the R&D phase (one of my favorite stages ).....

I am an engineer by trade, so the design definitely a fun stage; however I am still brewing out of a large kettle on my LP stove in my kitchen. I have a turkey burner, but don't see the need to move out of the kitchen until I complete my build.

I am considering a steel frame (got a welder friend) with a wood top and "storage shelf". I am thinking of building in a pinned tipping mechanism for cleaning. I am planning on insulating my two 1/2 kegs with 1/2" foam then complete with 1" wood slats. I am willing to spend some time on this to make it look nice since I think I am keeping these for some time. I am designing with all stainless tubing... with removable fittings for cleaning (still looking for a good supplier).

I am going with the CAMCO ripp 5500 W heating element in the HLT/BK. This kettle will also have the HERMS coil built into for keeping mash temperatures and later cooling. I am pretty set on a single tier (two pump) system because I have a specific location I want to put the rig in my bar/garage.

I put a lot of time into planning this weekend, so hopefully I can get rolling on the build next weekend. I am going to begin with manual (three way) toggle switches with a hope of moving to an "assisted brewing" system in the future mainly for repeatability and computer logging. I am also looking to possibly control my kergerator and fermenter at a future date for more reliability and energy efficiency.

I am looking at two main controllers basically because I know very little about computer programming and do not really have the time to spend in that area. I would like a system I can run off a built in computer or Ipad. I would eventually like it to be a touchscreen, but as stated, I will start now with all manual controls. I have heard the guys at brewtroller are working to put together a remote controlled system like EEC, but not sure on the release date. Can either of these systems run both a brew and kegerator at the same time (or even fermenter). The way I see it BCS can do this I think, but can not encorporate sensors such as volume.

I think I am leaning toward BCS from EEC because of the ease of the system and the ability to monitor/engage the system from my Iphone. Input is nice at this stage since I am pretty much changing my mind on a daily basis. Hopefully this week I am set some requirements and decide on the best system for me.

+1 to the BCS. The interface is awesome!

Thanks for the nod of approval, how personalized is BCS? Can I have my fermetor, brewing station and kegerator controlled by the same system? Can valves for the HERMS system be controlled by BCS? like I have said I am still in the R&D stage and would appreciate any advice.

Thanks for this thread, I'm planning to build a 2 vessel system with this plumbing configuration as well. I go back and forth about sparging :/ Just not sure how I want to handle it right yet...

So I have done a little more planning. I am trying to find a good source for valves. I am looking for electric acuated ball valves. I think I need 2 two-way ball valves and 3 three-way valves. I am going to have the two drain valves be manual 3-way valves to both final transfer to the fermentor and to clean the system.

i don't know if you've checked on prices of the 3- way valves and found something reasonable, but I haven't found any within anywhere's near the price of 2 two way valves... just something for you to consider, unless you have a healthy budget to spend $300 on a 3 way electric ball valve.

giligson said:

I like my two vessle system

Materials
One large kettle with SS spigot attached to a high temp reinforced vinyl tubing with a "showerhead" sparger (home built from copper pipe). TOP LEVEL

One Coleman cooler with SS braid (water heater line - it has a larger diameter than washing machine line). The braid has an internal SS wire spring that keeps it from collapsing. MID LEVEL

Collecting buckets. LOW LEVEL

Click to expand...

giligson said:

Sparge while collecting wort into whatever containers are handy (not too much into each bucket because you will have to lift these to the level of the kettle by hand).

Hope that brief description is clear.

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That's clear, but to be perfectly honest it's a 3 or 4 vessel system. Those collection buckets count towards your total "vessels" because you have to use them at some point in your brew day in order to get your wort.

If you put one kettle higher than the other you can remove a pump from the system. I have a 2 kettle electric system similar to this. There are pics at this link...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/brewkart-ditches-countertop-brutus-205427/

The only time wort leaves the system is when it is going into the fermenter.

My two vessel electric setup is pretty similar to this one, but I have compromised with my old 5 gallon brew pot to make it a 2.5 vessel system so I can sparge more effectively.

ftlstrings said:

My two vessel electric setup is pretty similar to this one, but I have compromised with my old 5 gallon brew pot to make it a 2.5 vessel system so I can sparge more effectively.

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What the heck is "2.5 vessel" system? Does that third vessel not have a bottom in it or something?