dry/astringent off flavor in IPAs only

First post -- I've searched exhaustively to try to find an answer for this, and checked a couple of books, but can't figure it out.

I'm about ten brews in, doing stovetop partial mashes, partial boil, some with kits from AHS and some with recipes/ingredients from the LHBS. After lots of newbie mistakes with the first few batches, I've made some decent beers, a couple good ones, and a great Scottish Ale. But both of the IPAs I've brewed taste terrible, and it's the same weird taste -- very dry, almost astringent (or puckering, like I've seen tannins described while searching).

Here's why I'm confused: they taste fine prior to bottling, and early in conditioning (even though they're green, they taste good). After a couple of weeks in the bottle this dry, almost powdery aftertaste develops, and it gets worse the longer they age, until after a month they're almost undrinkable.

More info:

Both AHS kits (one 60 minute clone, one other Old School IPA)
Followed instructions w/mash temps, hop additions, boil times
Different yeasts (one WLP 001, one Pacman), both with starters
OG/FGs: 1.068/1.015 and 1.061/1.014, respectively
Both dry hopped with 1 oz for 7 days.
Fermented for 2 wks primary (swamp cooler, approx. 64 deg.), one week secondary w/dry hop

Don't think it's an infection, because every non-IPA I've brewed with the same equipment has turned out at least decent, without this off flavor. The only thing I can think of is that they're the only two beers I've tried dry-hopping -- although I sanitized the bags by boiling. Could that have something to do with it?

Any ideas are welcome. I'm getting really frustrated, because I like IPAs and it's the only style I can't seem to brew right.

Since your technique is good, and the weird flavor only shows up in IPAs, it makes me wonder about your water chemistry.

What kind of water are you using? Any gypsum additions?

You could try dry hopping without hop bags.

Yooper said:

Since your technique is good, and the weird flavor only shows up in IPAs, it makes me wonder about your water chemistry.

What kind of water are you using? Any gypsum additions?

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This would be my guess. Hops react differently in different water chemestry.

toadvine said:

After a couple of weeks in the bottle this dry, almost powdery aftertaste develops, and it gets worse the longer they age, until after a month they're almost undrinkable.

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Could certainly be high sulfate, try making one with water built up from RO and add moderate sulfate (50 ppm ish).

However the quoted portion sounds like oxidation to me. I often perceive it as a dustiness which could be your powdery. The fact that it is getting worse over time is not consistent with water issues but is with oxidation. Very hoppy beers oxidize more readily than other beers.

Vinnie Cilurzo in Brewing Network stresses the importance of low oxygen pickup in IPAs. He even says it is worth it to a homebrewer who does not keg to buy a c02 tank so they can purge all vessels and lines.

Thanks for the replies.

I'm using San Francisco city water, no additions of any kind. It's supposed to be pretty good as tap water goes -- the report is online, should I check for the levels of any one thing in particular? (Edit: just saw the sulfates question -- the level of sulfates listed is an average of 16.6 ppm, with a range of 1.1 - 35.6.)

I just remembered that I was actually wrong -- I dry hopped one using a hop bag (boiled to sanitize), and the other by dropping the pellets directly into the secondary.

It could be oxidation, although I've heard that described as cardboard, and this taste is more bitter than that -- the taste sounds almost exactly like what people describe tannins as being (i.e., sucking on a tea bag), but I don't see how it could be tannins in a partial mash at a normal temp. Unless I'm oversparging somehow? I used DeathBrewer's sparge method of letting the bag sit in the sparge water.

Sulfates aren't the problem.

Trans-2-nonenal smells like cardboard or paper but that is not the only substance that oxidation can create in beer.

Hops have lots of tannins, maybe you just don't like heavily dry-hopped beers? Although the problem here is that, especially in cold stored beers, tannins will precipitate out of solution over time. So the fact that the problem gets worse does not at all suggest tannins.

The primary two things that get worse over time are infection and oxidation.

My first thought would be pH is too high in the mash. Probably doesn't show up so much in your darker ales because the dark malt additions help lower pH. The other issue could be oxidation. If it truly is only showing up after you bottle, it could be your bottles aren't sealing tightly.

remilard said:

Sulfates aren't the problem.

Trans-2-nonenal smells like cardboard or paper but that is not the only substance that oxidation can create in beer.

Hops have lots of tannins, maybe you just don't like heavily dry-hopped beers? Although the problem here is that, especially in cold stored beers, tannins will precipitate out of solution over time. So the fact that the problem gets worse does not at all suggest tannins.

The primary two things that get worse over time are infection and oxidation.

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Thanks again for the help.

I like most hoppy commercial beers -- Pliny, Lagunitas' various IPAs, Sierra Nevada PAs and IPAs, things like that -- but I do wonder if I'm over-dry-hopping. Is one oz a pretty heavy dry hop?

The aftertaste is present when the beers are young, but gets much worse over time. (Maybe the greenness hides it when they're young?)

The only oxidation issue I could see would be my autosiphon. I'm pretty careful not to splash while transferring from primary/secondary and secondary/bucket. None of my other beers have the taste -- would oxidation show up more in IPAs than other brews? (Other recent brews: belgian wit, 90 schilling, fin du monde clone, none of which have the off taste.)

That's what's really frustrating me -- if it were a sanitation or process issue that consistently showed up, it would be easier to troubleshoot/address.

JJL said:

My first thought would be pH is too high in the mash. Probably doesn't show up so much in your darker ales because the dark malt additions help lower pH. The other issue could be oxidation. If it truly is only showing up after you bottle, it could be your bottles aren't sealing tightly.

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Hadn't thought of pH. Would the pH be too high from oversparging? Or are there other causes why that might happen in a partial mash?

I think the bottles are sealing -- I'm using oxy caps, and the carbonation seems about right. (The IPAs in particular actually seem a little overcarbed.)

toadvine said:

Thanks again for the help.

I like most hoppy commercial beers -- Pliny, Lagunitas' various IPAs, Sierra Nevada PAs and IPAs, things like that -- but I do wonder if I'm over-dry-hopping. Is one oz a pretty heavy dry hop?

The aftertaste is present when the beers are young, but gets much worse over time. (Maybe the greenness hides it when they're young?)

The only oxidation issue I could see would be my autosiphon. I'm pretty careful not to splash while transferring from primary/secondary and secondary/bucket. None of my other beers have the taste -- would oxidation show up more in IPAs than other brews? (Other recent brews: belgian wit, 90 schilling, fin du monde clone, none of which have the off taste.)

That's what's really frustrating me -- if it were a sanitation or process issue that consistently showed up, it would be easier to troubleshoot/address.

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1 oz in 5 gallons is certainly less dry hop than Pliny and Hop Stoopid.

Oxidation does show up more in IPAs. Listen to The Brewing Network Sunday Session with Vinnie Cilurzo (I think there are two, might as well listen to both). He talks a lot about making IPAs in general but also stresses how important low oxygen is with them. At the RR packaging brewery they had a centrifuge that was malfunctioning and adding a small amount of oxygen to Pliny and it was a serious quality control problem (this was a couple of years ago). He stresses that purging everything, including hoses, with c02 is necessary for IPAs. It might be worth racking IPAs the old school way (hose filled with sanitizer) as the autosiphon starts a siphon but pushing air against the surface of the wort and also the filled tube is evacuated of oxygen.

Mike McDole who has won many awards for hoppy beers adds dry hops while the fermentation is still active (maybe 2 plato above terminal) so that the yeast can scavenge any oxygen the dry hopping process adds. Several commercial brewers do this as well.

I dry hop in a keg. I put the (leaf) hops in, purge the keg a few times with c02 and then rack the beer in. If I didn't have kegs and c02 I would probably go the route of adding them with 2 plato in attenuation left.

Thanks, remilard -- it sounds more and more like oxidation might be the issue. I'll try racking without the auto siphon next time, and if I dry hop I'll do it during fermentation -- I guess that means in primary, then? I'll also check out that Brew Network thing.

toadvine said:

Hadn't thought of pH. Would the pH be too high from oversparging? Or are there other causes why that might happen in a partial mash?

I think the bottles are sealing -- I'm using oxy caps, and the carbonation seems about right. (The IPAs in particular actually seem a little overcarbed.)

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THe pH problem would start in the mash itself. If the pH is too high it is usually attributable to too much bicarbonate in your water. You could tell if you looked at the water report for your area. Usually the pH is listed, but if it is not, look at the hardness or bicarbonate levels. Usually, if either of these measures is above say 200 or so, you have hard water. The mash pH needs to be ideally 5.2. You grains are what bring the mash down from a typical wter pH of about 7 to 5.2. If your water pH is say 7.8, the grains themselves typically won't make the mash acidic enough to get a proper starch conversion. This leads to a chalkiness and sometimes a thinness to the beer. Additionally, if your sparge water is too alkaline, it will extract chalky and astringent flavors from the grains. Then, when you add hops to a wort with pH that is too high it tends to extract an astringent bitterness from the hops as well.

I made a cream ale with water that had a pH of 7.7. It had bicarb levels that were off the charts - almost 400 ppm. Way too high for a light cream ale. You could taste all of the malty goodness in the background, but this was completely ruined by all of the chalky and astringent flavors up front. Not good.

JJL said:

If your water pH is say 7.8, the grains themselves typically won't make the mash acidic enough to get a proper starch conversion. This leads to a chalkiness and sometimes a thinness to the beer. Additionally, if your sparge water is too alkaline, it will extract chalky and astringent flavors from the grains.

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Well, 8.7 is certainly higher than 7.8: SF Water report (click "Click here to proceed to link destination").

I've actually noticed this in my IPAs as well - am going to pick up some 5.2 for the IPA I'm brewing tomorrow.

Hophazard said:

Well, 8.7 is certainly higher than 7.8: SF Water report (click "Click here to proceed to link destination").

I've actually noticed this in my IPAs as well - am going to pick up some 5.2 for the IPA I'm brewing tomorrow.

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I picked up the same stuff a few weeks ago. I haven't actually had a chance to try it yet.

Thanks for the advice, JJL -- some of my beers do seem a little thin, too, so the pH might be an issue. I'll try bottled water next time. Between that and making sure to avoid oxidation, hopefully I can make a decent IPA.

Did you ever figure this out? I'm having the same issue. My IPAs and Pale Ales all have a harsh bitterness or astringency at the back end. I don't taste this in other styles I brew.

I know another brewer who lives close by and he has the same taste in his IPA. This taste doesn't go away with time.

I'm thinking it might be water chemistry. We both adjust and monitor pH so I think I can rule that out. I have good temperature control for both sparging and fermenting so I don't think that is the issue either. We do have really alkaline water here and the TDS is pretty high. I think my next step will be to build water starting with RO water. Not sure what else to try.

I stopped using the 5.2 after reading Ajdelange's Water Chemistry Primer. Next IPA and Pale Ale batches were the best I've made yet. Just used some Gypsum and Calcium Chloride and 2oz acid malt. Such better tasing beer!

I had exactly the same astringency problem with a few batches in a row (mostly Pliny clones). I reviewed my process and made a number of minor changes to my process and used a simpler recipe as a reference point (Jamil's IPA recipe). It came out great, problem solved, but I do not know what the cause was. The biggest changes I made was flushing the keg with CO2 and transferring the beer from the carboy using a CO2 push (I know...dangerous) and being psychotically meticulous with cleaning, rinsing and sanitizing.

c-note: Today I'm bottling the first pale ale I've done since this post, so I should know in a couple of weeks whether I've fixed it. Going to rack w/o the autosiphon and be extra careful about oxidation/sanitation. I also did a very simple recipe (single hop, US-05, no dry hop), so if the taste is still there this time it'll help narrow it down to water chemistry. I'll try to remember to update this post once I taste this batch.

Hophazard: The guy at the LHBS (Brewcraft) recommended gypsum but I didn't have any handy on brew day. If this batch still has the taste, I'll definitely use it next time around.

Cool - good luck. I'd pick up some Calcium Chloride, too and use 1tsp of each in the mash. It drove me crazy until I fixed it since pales and IPAs are two of my favorite styles to drink.

Here's one test: Add a tiny pinch (and I mean TINY) of noniodized salt to a glass of your beer, and give it a minute to dissolve, then taste. Does the off-flavor change? If so, you may want to look into adjusting your water with an eye toward the sulfate - chloride ratio.

Any results here? The end of the thread always leaves me hanging!!

I had the exact same problem and once I acidified my sparge water it was fixed. My tap water pH is 8-9 which extracts tannins it seems so i acidified it done to the 5.3 range. Another way to fix it would be no sparge, if you can achieve a mash pH of 5.3 by adding salts or acid malt.