Lesson learned

I bottled a batch of dark chocolate stout today (5gal extract batch). It was my first attempt at a chocolate stout. I used 6oz of unsweetened dark cocoa powder in the boil. It tasted great in the primary, but didn't have as much chocolate flavor as I was wanting. I decided I would rack on top of a vodka/cocoa powder concoction that I read about on this forum. I used an oz of vodka and about 3oz of cocoa powder. I let it sit in the secondary for about a week (until today).. I took my final gravity reading and tasted the sample. The great taste that I experienced in the primary was gone, and I could taste the vodka aftertaste. It had a very high alcohol taste to it..It's very discouraging considering how nice it tasted before doing that. I bottled up anyway, and I'm hoping after some extended time in the bottle it will mellow out. I have since graduated to AG and I brewed up an AG batch of this same beer. I also used lactose in the mix this time around. Also, this time instead of racking on top of anything in secondary I will go straight to the bottling bucket (after 4 week primary) with a little chocolate extract I got from my HBS. I'm hoping this batch will be way better. Have any of you used chocolate extract at bottling? Did you like it? Instructions say to use 5oz extract for a 5gal batch.. Should I cut that in half just to be on the safe side?

It's hard to imagine that you could taste 1oz of vodka in a 5gal batch. What ABV% did this end at? What temp did you ferment at?

JLem said:

It's hard to imagine that you could taste 1oz of vodka in a 5gal batch. What ABV% did this end at? What temp did you ferment at?

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I was thinking the same thing, actually.. The abv ended up at 4.9 and I fermented at 64F.. Is there another reason why it might have such a sharp alcohol bite to it? I used WLP002 English Ale yeast. OG = 1.054, FG = 1.017

Actually it would be more true to say that the ferm temp fluctuated from 64F to 66F. I don't have temperature control, so I have to let things go at room temp. I do sometimes do the wet t-shirt and fan- swamp cooler trick when temps get to 66.5F.. Is this too out of control, or is a 2 degree swing ok?

What is the easyest way to clean blow off hose

chadrut72 said:

What is the easyest way to clean blow off hose

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You would be better of posting a new thread in the equipment/sanitizing section.. I don't use a blow off tube, but if I did I would either use PBW or oxiclean followed up by a short soak in star-san..

Thanks first time

No problem chadrut.. (de-hijacking with a shameless bump to get back on topic... thanks)

Stauffbier said:

Actually it would be more true to say that the ferm temp fluctuated from 64F to 66F. I don't have temperature control, so I have to let things go at room temp. I do sometimes do the wet t-shirt and fan- swamp cooler trick when temps get to 66.5F.. Is this too out of control, or is a 2 degree swing ok?

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High fermentation temps is one of the causes of a sharp alcoholic taste, but a 2 degree temp swing in the high 60's won't cause that. The other cause for fusel alcohol is too much yeast or sitting too long in the trub (but 4 weeks isn't that long).

How are your sanitation techniques?

A4J said:

High fermentation temps is one of the causes of a sharp alcoholic taste, but a 2 degree temp swing in the high 60's won't cause that. The other cause for fusel alcohol is too much yeast or sitting too long in the trub (but 4 weeks isn't that long).

How are your sanitation techniques?

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I'm a sanitation maniac! I spray EVERYTHING with star-san! Even myself! I'll usually spray things 2 or 3 times for that matter. If it was sanitation, I would be shocked.. I should add that the "hot" taste wasn't overwhelming, but it was noticeable. I could even smell it slightly as I was bottling. Usually when I bottle it just smells like tasty beer...

Stauffbier said:

I'm a sanitation maniac! I spray EVERYTHING with star-san! Even myself! I'll usually spray things 2 or 3 times for that matter. If it was sanitation, I would be shocked.. I should add that the "hot" taste wasn't overwhelming, but it was noticeable. I could even smell it slightly as I was bottling. Usually when I bottle it just smells like tasty beer...

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Well, your process all seems good. Not sure where the problem might be - perhaps it's just the way this beer tastes when young. Give it time to properly carb and condition and see if the taste is still there. I'm going to guess it won't.

JLem said:

Well, your process all seems good. Not sure where the problem might be - perhaps it's just the way this beer tastes when young. Give it time to properly carb and condition and see if the taste is still there. I'm going to guess it won't.

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I have a funny feeling you might be right (or at least I hope so).. I'm gonna taste one in a month to see where it's at.. Regardless of what it tastes like at that point I will age them for at least 2 or 3 months as I've read that's good for a stout..

In my experience, the key to bringing that chocolate taste forward is the use of lactose. Use at least a half pound and up to a full pound in the secondary or at bottling. A tiny addition of pure vanilla extract helps too. A teaspoon should work.

FWIW, i can often taste alcohol in warm, flat, unconditioned beer that is no longer noticeable in cold, carbed, properly conditioned bottles.

Domes said:

In my experience, the key to bringing that chocolate taste forward is the use of lactose. Use at least a half pound and up to a full pound in the secondary or at bottling. A tiny addition of pure vanilla extract helps too. A teaspoon should work.

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I just brewed an AG chocolate stout on the first day of 2012 and I did indeed use lactose. I have some powdered brewers vanilla extract I could boil up with a tiny bit of water and toss it in (I actually thought about doing this before even reading your post)....

NordeastBrewer77 said:

FWIW, i can often taste alcohol in warm, flat, unconditioned beer that is no longer noticeable in cold, carbed, properly conditioned bottles.

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I'm still pretty new, but in my total of 9 other batches I haven't experienced that before. It might just be the style, though. It is my first stout, so I don't have a basis for comparison..

So, this beer has been conditioning for 13 days now. I've drank a few in the last couple of days. It still has a strange "hot" taste to it, but not as bad as it seemed on bottling day. I really can't put my finger on the "off" taste I'm getting. It's almost like a mild solvent-like taste. I can't understand why as my ferm temps were stable in the mid 60's. I'm hoping after a good amount of mellowing time it will get better, because I'm really not enjoying this batch at the moment. Maybe this is one I should just hide away in a dark closet and forget about it for a good while. Have any of you ever experienced this problem? Did some aging help?

Update on this;

So it appears that this beer caught a wild yeast. It must have happend in the secondary, because I smelled and tasted it on bottling day. After about 6 weeks of bottle conditioning I noticed the astringant taste is still there and the bottles are all gushing real bad. I let a sample de-gas and took a hydro reading and it appears there has been fermentation as it has dropped about .004 and has a new, drier taste. I put them all in the fridge, so they don't blow. I'm going to let them cold condition for a couple weeks and see if it helps mellow the off taste and reduce the gushing....

Gushing is only a for-sure sign of contamination if you're sure you got the priming sugar right. I screwed mine up on my milk porter and had some issues that required re-capping the whole batch! As for the vodka-ey hot taste, I've definitely experienced that - and it's taken almost six months for the taste to condition out of the bottled ale. Too bad, because I've been using it for cooking and now that it tastes good I'm almost out of it.

Kerin said:

Gushing is only a for-sure sign of contamination if you're sure you got the priming sugar right. I screwed mine up on my milk porter and had some issues that required re-capping the whole batch! As for the vodka-ey hot taste, I've definitely experienced that - and it's taken almost six months for the taste to condition out of the bottled ale. Too bad, because I've been using it for cooking and now that it tastes good I'm almost out of it.

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I made an all grain version of this beer shortly after, and it is delicious. The only thing I did different is I used chocolate extract at bottling (from Austin Homebrew) instead of the vodka extract. My priming sugar was good, I believe. I know in my original post I stated that I suspected the vodka of creating the off taste, but I'm pretty sure now that wasn't it. The taste is very nasty, and isn't going away at all. In fact, it might be getting worse. The fact that it was fermenting in the bottle told me something was wrong.

I'm still a bit curious as to your recipe and fmash temps. Also, (read learning for me) what makes you think that it is a wild yeast vs too high of a mash temperature. The high tannic, buzzy alc taste is what I get during mid summer brews.

I also want to give a +1 for the use of lactose in the boil for making chocolate beers. My chocolate porter is an annual hit. I use 1lb of lactose and an entire can (I believe 8 oz) of the Hersey Special Dark in the last 5 min. of the boil

Stauffbier said:

I know in my original post I stated that I suspected the vodka of creating the off taste, but I'm pretty sure now that wasn't it.

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Yeah, the amount of vodka that loads of homebrewers use is nuts. Adding fruit? Soak in vodka, toss it in. Coffee beans? Vodka. Dry hopping? You bet your ass some people soak 'em in vodka first. If adding an ounce or three of vodka to five gallons of beer was noticeable, half of HBT would be upset.

Stauffbier said:

The taste is very nasty, and isn't going away at all. In fact, it might be getting worse. The fact that it was fermenting in the bottle told me something was wrong.

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Yeah, I guess you're infected. Still might be an idea to toss those bottles in a basement and forget about them for six months. Might turn around!

mdpolakow said:

I'm still a bit curious as to your recipe and fmash temps. Also, (read learning for me) what makes you think that it is a wild yeast vs too high of a mash temperature. The high tannic, buzzy alc taste is what I get during mid summer brews

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It was extract and specialty grains, not all grain. I suspect wild yeast or sugar eating bacteria for a couple reasons. It tasted delicious the day I racked it to secondary on top of the vodka/cocoa extract. The gravity was stable at 1.016 for a week before I racked it over. The predicted range was 1.014 to 1.018. It stayed at that gravity for 2 weeks in secondary. When I racked to the bottling bucket is when I noticed a strange odor and taste. I bottled up anyway. After 6 weeks in the bottle I discovered a ton of strange looking yeast at the bottom and literally crawling up the sides in the bottles. I opended one after 48 hrs of chilling and it gushed about half the bottle out. I let it de-gas, and checked gravity. It was at 1.010, and the taste was still there. That tells me something is eating the unfermentable sugars in the bottle i.e. wild yeast or bacteria or something...

Kerin said:

Yeah, I guess you're infected. Still might be an idea to toss those bottles in a basement and forget about them for six months. Might turn around!

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I don't have a basement, and since I live in the dessert southwest it gets up to 85F in my house in summer. So, I have to keep them in a fridge. I decided to try making some bbq marinade with one. If the off taste isn't there after cooking with it, that's what I'll use it for!