Making Kombucha using Apple Cider Vinegar

So I've finally got around to picking up some apple cider vinegar. This brand is unpasteurized and contains a mother. I figure I'll add about one ounce w/mother to a standard KT brewing medium. Cya in a little over a week

Oh wow, very cool! I had no idea you could start a kombucha SCOBY from apple cider vinegar. Is this the same exact thing as the kombucha SCOBY, or does it produce a different tasting drink?

I'm very interested to see how this progresses, keep us updated!

wont you just be making vinegar? your missing some of the other bacterias that make kombucha. SCOBY stands for symbiotic colony of bacteria and yeast. that vinegar will only have the vinegar bacteria in it? i may be wrong i've just started making kombucha.

i also interested how it turns out

So day five and something is forming. I probably should have started with a higher concentration of vinegar to tea/sugar water in order to develop a robust mother first, and to worry about making a drinkable tea later.

I'm doing this for two reasons:

-apple cider vinegar can be added to your KT to help acidify your brew and prevent mold from taking over. Especially when you're just starting out with a new mother or starter.
-I believe that Kombucha is merely an acetobacter of no particular importance, and I'm pretty sure the yeasts are of a common airborne variety, compatible with said acetobacter. What makes Kombucha significant is what it is made with, not the mother per se.

I'll start a second more concentrated batch to focus solely on the production of the mother. I'll do this on day 7 and see how both are looking on the first brew's day 14 With pics

Great idea! I've been meaning to get around to it for ages, but I've been too lazy to track down live vinegar.

As said, kombucha is just made with yeast and Acetobacter. Vinegar uses the same stuff, but not at the same time. The microbes and acidity should all be there in vinegar to make it work, you probably wouldn't even need the 'mother'. You can't make vinegar without first making alcohol. If you leave kombucha to sit around you end up with vinegar anyway, and yes, you can still make more kombucha with it.

Thanks for sharing your experience, I look forward to hearing the results

actually there was no visible mother in that bottle of ACV

A mother is most certainly forming. I'm going to start up a smaller more concentrated brew today, to better propagate a mother. My first batch is virtually a 3.5L KT solution with 50ml of ACV. If I do more of a 50/50 blend to get a mother going fast, I should be able to remove the mother within a week to 10 days with 20ml of the liquid and do a proper drinkable 3.5L KT under the accustomed time of 7-10 days

So here's what I got after ten days. It looks like a layer of some sort of gelatin. It's likely slow on the yeast uptake. I ran out of sugar to make a second more concentrated ACV batch to hasten mother production. So I'm just going to leave this one for another week and then remove the mother with some liquid, and then start anew. I am almost certain that it will become drinkable and will taste like standard KT after 8-10 days on the second brew.

It smells a bit like KT, it's still very sweet. So yes, it's slow coming even compared to using a commercial KT for a starter. I can use half a bottle of GT's original KT for a starter and have 3.5L of KT in 10 days

I'll post one more picture at the end of this batch cycle to show how it looks, and then we'll continue on from there in to the next brew

In spite of what you think, Kombucha is not "merely an acetobacter of no particular importance" or "yeasts of a common airborne variety".

It's a symbiotic colony.

First, the yeast. It can be either Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Brettanomyces bruxellensis, Candida stellata, Schizosaccharomyces pombe, Torulaspora delbrueckii, or Zygosaccharomyces bailii.

Then comes Gluconacetobacter xylinus. That bacteria has to be the predominant one, as it is responsible for transforming alcool to acetic acid, AND it's responsible for creating the cellulose layer that grows on top, which we all call the "mother".

Now, congratulations, you just made vinegar. Unfortunatelly, you cannot call it "Kombucha" anymore.

Thanks for the Congratulations. Now how about you share some links to where you've gathered this information so we can all become more enlightened? I'd like to see more credible research papers on KT, as last I looked it seemed quite lacking.

ThePonchoKid said:

Thanks for the Congratulations. Now how about you share some links to where you've gathered this information so we can all become more enlightened? I'd like to see more credible research papers on KT, as last I looked it seemed quite lacking.

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I agree, the solid research about kombucha really is lacking. That's the hardest part for me, because I like to have definitive info on stuff like this.

I don't think AntX is totally off base, as most of my reading seems to suggest there are many differences between a SCOBY and a MOV (mother of vinegar).

"...the three universal elements in all kombucha mushroom strains are gluconic acid, acetic acid, and fructose.

Meanwhile, mother of vinegars (MOVs) are used to produce vinegar. MOVs are cellulose substances made of strains of Acetobacter (1 , 2 ) and bacteria that produce acetic acid."

"According to Happy Herbalist , the difference between kombucha and vinegar is that kombucha has gluconic acid, while vinegar does not."

"Meanwhile, according to the Steve Dickman, the co-founder of High Country Kombucha , what makes their kombucha "authentic" is the presence of the strain Z. Kombuchaensis in their brew..."


However, there does also seem to be the implication that if you start with a MOV, it can still become a SCOBY (or at least something very much like it) if you start feeding it sweet tea.

"However, I believe that even if you grow a kombucha SCOBY using the same method that I used to grow a kombucha mother (except for using raw vinegar as a starter instead of kombucha), and if you are feeding the culture glucose, fructose, and tea, and brewing as how you would traditionally brew kombucha, you should be getting benefits from the beneficial acids produced in the brewing process. Just like kombucha, there are health benefits associated with the consumption of unpasteurized vinegars. My hypothesis is that feeding such a culture grown from raw vinegar could still create a SCOBY, because it seems that there are some similar strains in kombucha SCOBYs and MOVs, and natural yeasts and bacteria in the air would be incorporated in the culture to create a SCOBY, as well."


This is the article that I'm getting this info from: http://www.kombuchafuel.com/2010/10/kombucha-scobys-vs-mothers-of-vinegar.html

It's by no means definitive, but it does have some interesting info. I'd also recommend the links on that page to the kombucha analysis. At the end of the day, I say keep on keeping on, as I'm looking forward to seeing how your experiment turns out.

Cheers!

ThePonchoKid said:

Thanks for the Congratulations. Now how about you share some links to where you've gathered this information so we can all become more enlightened? I'd like to see more credible research papers on KT, as last I looked it seemed quite lacking.

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I didn't mean to sound condescending, so I appologize for that.

Z. Kombuchaensis is new to me.... here's an abstract of a study done by australians in 2004:

"Abstract

Kombucha is a traditional fermentation of sweetened tea, involving a symbiosis of yeast species and acetic acid bacteria. Despite reports of different yeast species being associated with the fermentation, little is known of the quantitative ecology of yeasts in Kombucha. Using oxytetracycline-supplemented malt extract agar, yeasts were isolated from four commercially available Kombucha products and identified using conventional biochemical and physiological tests. During the fermentation of each of the four products, yeasts were enumerated from both the cellulosic pellicle and liquor of the Kombucha. The number and diversity of species varied between products, but included Brettanomyces bruxellensis, Candida stellata, Schizosaccharomyces pombe, Torulaspora delbrueckii and Zygosaccharomyces bailii. While these yeast species are known to occur in Kombucha, the enumeration of each species present throughout fermentation of each of the four Kombucha cultures demonstrated for the first time the dynamic nature of the yeast ecology. Kombucha fermentation is, in general, initiated by osmotolerant species, succeeded and ultimately dominated by acid-tolerant species."

And here's a very insightful analysis by the University of Cornell:

http://www.happyherbalist.com/analysis_of_kt_cornell.htm

Also, don't feel averted to experiment with kombucha or any other source of (unharmful) bacteria, just because I sounded like an *******. I did just what you did, I even tried kombucha in coffee, apple juice, and even grain wort.

But after a while, my scobys all did the same thing: they mutated.

The medium didn't contain the same strains as they used to, obviously, because the conditions changed.

Acidity, sugar types, the presence of oils, etc all had an effect: organisms that were previously "symbiotic" turned to being competing for resources.

It just happens that the apple vinegar sitting on my counter is made by what "used to be" a very usual-looking scoby, but not anymore.

Interesting reads. I've dabbled on the HH site a few times. Mostly for the KT alcohol/wine documentation.

Have you tried unhopped malt extracts? I have some Briess amber malt that I was thinking of using with a bottle of GTs and a tea blend.

I've been using white refined sugar in my KT for about three years and it seems to be sufficient. At least I certainly have noticed the mood softening affect that it has on me if I drink it daily for at least two months.

Thanks for the apology. I'm well seasoned to dance with various internet persona. So it was no biggie

ThePonchoKid said:

I've been using white refined sugar in my KT for about three years and it seems to be sufficient. At least I certainly have noticed the mood softening affect that it has on me if I drink it daily for at least two months.

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AntX, thanks for the sources, very informative!

Poncho (and AntX), I also have only used white sugar. I was wondering, did you notice any differences if using turbinado sugar (if you used it)? I was thinking of switching to turbinado to get off processed sugar, but if there's no benefit, I'd rather save the money, (Sorry if it's a bit off topic)

And no, I haven't used malt extract.

I can't answer that, but I feel that the use of refined sugar is relatively harmless as a lot of it is metabolized and converted. I do brush my teeth immediately after drinking the KT. I get the feeling that the acids are a bit harsh on the teeth.

AntX said:

In spite of what you think, Kombucha is not "merely an acetobacter of no particular importance" or "yeasts of a common airborne variety".

It's a symbiotic colony.

First, the yeast. It can be either Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Brettanomyces bruxellensis, Candida stellata, Schizosaccharomyces pombe, Torulaspora delbrueckii, or Zygosaccharomyces bailii.

Then comes Gluconacetobacter xylinus. That bacteria has to be the predominant one, as it is responsible for transforming alcool to acetic acid, AND it's responsible for creating the cellulose layer that grows on top, which we all call the "mother".

Now, congratulations, you just made vinegar. Unfortunatelly, you cannot call it "Kombucha" anymore.

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What's the difference between a SCOBY and a MOV?

What are the main species of yeast and bacteria used to make vinegar? Do any of them overlap? It would be surprising if they don't, although it would also not be surprising if some types of vinegar are made with species which wouldn't make 'normal kombucha'.

What chemicals make up the technical and functional differences between vinegar and kombucha?

I am sceptical, but I'm not saying you're wrong, and I haven't tried it. I heavily suspect that if you start with the normal kombucha tea mix and add vinegar you'll end up with something indistinguishable from kombucha, which would make it kombucha. I may be wrong of course.

Hi, someone gave me a scoby to start making my own kombucha. I wasn't sure if I had enough starter liquid so I added raw apple cider vinegar but after reading on many sites you shouldn't do that I am concerned. I read it will be drinkable but I should throw my scoby away and start over bc it was compromised and in competition with MOV. I'm scared to drink it though lol, how did yours turn out? Also, any info/opinions would be great..thanks!

MizzSunshine said:

Hi, someone gave me a scoby to start making my own kombucha. I wasn't sure if I had enough starter liquid so I added raw apple cider vinegar but after reading on many sites you shouldn't do that I am concerned. I read it will be drinkable but I should throw my scoby away and start over bc it was compromised and in competition with MOV. I'm scared to drink it though lol, how did yours turn out? Also, any info/opinions would be great..thanks!

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I think you should be fine with it, Ive read you can use vinager in place of starter to bring the ph down; as long as its a kombucha scoby i think your good

I know KT is used to reduce candida in the body, but is it possible to increase the amount of candida? Since a strain (if there are strains) of candida is present in SCOBYs is there a chance it would increase the amount in our own bodies? Maybe if contaminated in the brewing process?

I am very new to this but my wife was just tested by her naturalpathic doctor and was off the charts with yeast. And the doctor said she has noticed a dramatic increase in this phenomenon since brewing kombucha has become so popular.

Thank you in advance.

It is also said that there is a connection to the theobromin in the the and the culture of kombusha and jun. So thats why a scoby in other media than black/green te an sugar/hony is not vorking very well for longer periods of time.

And it is different bacterial cultureas in kombusha and vinagre scobys. You can train a vinagre scoby to work for you in kombusha making But it isnt kombusha you get it is a similar drink.
You also have bacteria and yeast comming from the te leaves. And for jun from the hony.

Swedish girl new to this forum. Making mead and brewing traditional beer

My son and I like Kombucha! He would like to make Mead and I would like to do about a 12 liter batch of beer .... looking for recipes!

They warned in The Big Book of Kombucha that adding ACV to your batch could result in vinegar worms,and the photo was not appealing.

I have read that vinegar can contain vinegar eels in it, which feed off scobys.

CellularCitadel said:

I have read that vinegar can contain vinegar eels in it, which feed off scobys.

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Extra protein?!

sarahmikazeph said:

Extra protein?!

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Clean Protein!!

I just newbie.. and at the end of story its little bit burst.. from the topic agenda and i still wondering if..apple cider vinegar can made life of Scoby or its just become something else? now 2020. this info catch my attention of creating scoby without using kombucha. Appreciate if this deference method but create a same target i mean scoby. Many thanks.

Cheers!